Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Dan 0:00

I think that one factor of what pastors and church systems end up doing, whether or not they have bad intentions, is that they find when they use fear that their messages more effectively received. And they find that organically, they don't have to want it to be that way. It just is that way because the way our brains are wired, so it's effective, so they repeat it. They are acting on incentives just like everybody else is. And they need their building paid for, and they need this ministry that they really believe in to be funded and this is how it has worked; and also they might themselves be afraid. So there's also if there are actually and i'm not i'm not psychoanalyzing any one person here, but if they are afraid of God, at their core, if the really primary thing they feel towards God is fear, and I don't mean awe and wonder, as in fear the Lord, I mean, be afraid of the Lord then they're going to pass that on. Because at the end of the day, that's going to be the most primal thing.

Seth Intro 1:10

Today, you're in for a treat. So I chatted with fellow podcaster Dan Koch, who uses, or uses, who has a podcast called, You Have Permission, which you'll hear and talk about the name of this show. But I also like that one, because there are a lot of things in life that you had been told that you don't have permission to do, to talk about, to ask to say, to think, to believe, and that matters a lot when you're talking about God in prayer, and the church, and science and astrophysics, and grief and loss and fill in anything that you feel like you don't have permission to say.

And so Dan and I, we talk about eschatology, which is not a topic that really gets a lot of discussion on this show, and maybe something that I should address. We talked about atonement, and we talked about panic attacks and anxiety and kind of the church's role in that and how psychology and theology kind of all mesh together, why it should matter.

And so, in lieu of the normal, subscribe, rate and review, support the show on either glow, or Patreon, because you know that you should have done that already. And I've already said thank you for that right now. Thank you for doing that to the person that just clicked the button. Let's get into this conversation with Dan Koch.

Seth 2:43

Dan Koch, welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast, live and in color. I'm excited to talk with you, man. How are you?

Dan 2:50

I'm good. I have two things to say before we start here, for patrons who are watching the video on this. Yes, it's messy in here. It's all Is this messy? I don't have an excuse. I can live with quite a bit of chaos. And then the other thing I got to tell you, Seth, Can I Say This At Church is just elite podcast naming.

You just, I don't know about you know, we could debate everything else. But you've got me beat on branding for sure. Now, when I saw that I was like, Oh, damn, that's brilliant. Way to go. You did it. Got the name! So good!

Seth 3:26

Well…thanks. It took a while to come up with that. I had actually had a friend that kept responding back to me. I would give him random Hey, what do you think about this movie about this? He's like, trash, trash. No, kinda like it. But a friend with a very he's very sarcastic. He's like, you know what? You can't say any of this crap at church. And I'm like, that's it. I'm taking it. So I can’t really give credit for that, he did it.

Dan 3:52

Yeah, you saw it for what it was.

Seth 3:53

I was like, Oh, it was taking that he's like taking what? I was like nothing! Taking nothing you don't know what you said.

Dan 3:59

Do it. It's so much harder to name a podcast than people think having started three of my own it's hard to name.

Seth 4:06

So what are your three?

Dan 4:08

So I don't really do the other two anymore. Reconstruct, which I did with a buddy John. And then Depolarize which was more about politics and psychology and whatnot.

Seth 4:21

Reconstruct…is that like white with a green logo?

Dan 4:24

It's, no it's like a classical artwork background and like romantic painting and then white “Reconstruct.” I think it might have had different artwork for the last few episodes.

Seth 4:32

Why did you stop doing those?

Dan 4:38

Reconstructs was a two person project and that, like the other my co-host moved to California, I'm up in Seattle, and his interest kind of shifted. And then Depolarize I stopped doing because, frankly, politics just makes me anxious and doesn't really feel like my calling, if I can call it that. So You Have permission is like, right down the pipe of what I think I'm supposed to be doing.

Seth 5:08

You like it?

Dan 5:10

Yeah, I'm you know, I mean you can tell us. You have to like it to do it every week all year long.

Seth 5:17

(laughter) You do it every week, don't you?

Dan 5:19

Yeah. So I like it. Yeah, just like you must like it, otherwise you wouldn't be doing this.

Seth 5:22

Well, part of it is I really do enjoy it. The other part is, I've done it for so long now. I feel like I'd have to have a really good reason to just “guys, I'm done”. Like, there would have to be like, I would have to wind it down intentionally.

But I had a conversation with a guy that listens to the show earlier of what kind of my thoughts are for the year, what I want to do. And he's like, so you're not done anytime soon. I'm like, I still have more things that I want to learn. So yeah, let's do it.

Let's do it in real time. I get to be ignorant in front of everybody. This will be fun!

Dan 5:52

I mean, the personal learning and personal growth aspect is is probably the thing that people think of the least that is the big difference between how important people would imagine it is and how important it actually is. Yeah, it's probably, you know, my number one number two reason for doing it. But I don't talk about that very often. I don't even think about it very often, but when I do, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I have been able to have like, I've been able to kind of talk through everything I think is interesting. with people who know what they're talking about.

Seth 6:19

Yes.

Dan 6:20

And I just get to do that. You know, I mean, it's incredible that they’ll just say yes.

Seth 6:25

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, everyone is extremely generous with their time. What Dan's not telling you is that is not messy. I showed messy and I'm not going to put that on video earlier before we started recording, because I'm sitting in the basement full of …ugh…just stuff.

Dan 6:39

But Kid Toys don't. These are adult toys. These are guitars…

Seth 6:45

That's not messy though

Dan 6:48

That’s a snare drum. Well, there's like, shit on the ground. There's a blanket on this chair. I don't know. It's not…I think my chair is blocking the two extra chairs..

Seth 6:52

He's buried the lead. He live plays the music for his intro on his podcast. Every song!!

Dan 7:01

No! Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, I did compose it all though. So if you like music…I mean, not like, yeah, it's there's some tricks of the trade, because that's my day job is I write music for, like commercial music for ads and whatnot.

Seth 7:17

Cool.

Dan 7:19

So there's some tricks so that it’s not as hard as it sounds to do. But yeah, it's all it's all my music.

Seth 7:23

Let’s transition from there. It's like you do this professionally. What is…whom is Dan Koch? Like it's my favorite question I ask is what makes you you what do you do what makes you tick? And we can take that whatever direction you want to, but when people say yeah, what are you doing? What do you say?

Dan 7:41

Well, I am, I think I've always been a little bit of an exhibitionist, not in the sexual sense, but in the kind of, I'm an open book, here's what I'm working on; respond to it publicly kind of a thing. You know, since I was in punk bands when I was 14, you know, I've always been drawn to that. I think I liked I'm sure I like the attention. I'm an extrovert. I'm a verbal processor. So that's kind of the personality aspect of it that leads one to start three separate podcasts and do it for years.

And then in terms of theologically, I grew up kind of moderate, nondenominational, in California. So I don't have a lot of the baggage that many of my Southern and Midwestern friends have. But I was nearby enough of it to have some baggage. And also, I have struggled with panic disorder for most of my life. It's in remission right now. I mean, I'm old enough and know enough now to kind of know how to deal with it, but really like my childhood, junior high high school, college and 20s it was a major factor. And so we're going to talk some more about that stuff and I'll tell a little bit of that story later.

And then I guess the final bit is like nowadays I feel, you know, I feel called to a kind of a ministry. But what I have seen, in my own experience and in my conversations with with friends and other people and, and people I met in those years in my 20s, when I was playing in a band called Sherwood touring the country. There are a lot of really good intentioned people, well, meaning people who repeat canned answers to really difficult questions, and they do it in the church setting. And because it's the church setting, and because the canned answers came from someone with perceived or actual spiritual authority, those canned answers are deemed sufficient. And then of course, as you know, there are people for whom they are insufficient, and they need another place to talk about this stuff. And a little bit of fire in the belly for me comes when I recognize just how canned the answers are and that they're not even really, that thoughtful a lot of the times like, if you ask your pastor about penal substitutionary atonement, and you're like, “Did Jesus really have to die to like appease of blood thing” like that? Most of the time, your pastor either forgot, because they learned it in seminary and forgot it, or don't even know (that) there are six other atonement theories.

And I don't think any of them may be Satisfaction Theory, but other than that, none of them require blood in like the Israelites sense of sacrifice needing blood to cleanse sin, but like, they don't even know that. And they'll say, “hey, that's not the kind of thing we ask around here” or they'll very politely kind of give you the runaround, you know, whatever, you know, you know, this isn't so to your listeners.

So, I try to present probably very similar to what you do, just trying to present different perspectives and just to kind of free people up from feeling forced to take those kind of kind of bad answers to good questions.

Seth 11:11

Yes, my pastor, and I'm going to say it back because I'm….it's been a while since I paraphrased it. And I'm sure he stole it from someone else. I'm pretty sure that he's told me that. But he said something similar. And he said it in church one time of, unasked questions are much more dangerous than badly answered questions or something like that. And then he dovetailed it down to so for real like when I say something, you have a question, just ask it if you could. And if I can answer it here, we will get together and we will talk about it. And when I find when I've done that with him, he'd be like, well, I'm gonna ask you the questions then. Like you asked me one question Dan asked me 26 I'm like, I came here to ask you the questions. Yeah, that's not how this pastoral thing is going to work. That's not how that should work.

Dan 11:56

Interesting. Sounds like a good guy.

Seth 11:58 Y

eah, most of the time. Most time not only there were more, don't tell him he’ll get a big head. Don’t tell him.

Dan 12:06

This is public, Seth I hate to break it to you.

Seth 12:06

Well, he'll probably listen and then we'll joke about it on Sunday whenever, whenever this releases. So you are also a PhD candidate, student. How does that work.

Dan 12:17

Yea it’s actually a Psy D, but it's a doctor. It's a psychology doctor. And it's just a little bit more focused on counseling than research. I mean, I'm just in grad school, I just I'm like half a year in so I don't know a lot about psychology yet.

I do not speak as any sort of expert or licensed psychologist, but five years or so from now I will be one. And in terms of like, academic work, I plan to work at the intersection of psychology and theology. That's something that I'm really interested in and, and then my own private practice, I plan to focus on people who have suffered some kind of spiritual abuse, or for whom change in their faith or change in their spouses, faith or whatever, is something that they want to talk about in therapy.

Seth 13:02

Yeah. So, gosh, when did you email me? I'm gonna cheat and look. Two months ago! I'm….I am. So for those that are just watching or listening, I'm the most tardy person when it comes to email.

Dan 13:17

Hey at least you wrote me back.

Seth 13:19

I literally responded to a guy that emailed me the same day you did, today. I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm really bad at email. I told him, here's my cell phone number, just call me because I'm really bad at email. My wife will tell you is like I think I have 800 unread emails right now I'm just really bad.

Dan 13:36

I'm looking at my inbox has 3014 unread emails, so I might have you beat.

Seth 13:43

The problem is, I'm not gonna respond to any of those. But I'm also equally bad at social media and responding to messages. And when people tag me like, I just, I don't, I just don't, I don't really want to.

Dan 13:53

Sounds like you're a healthy person is what I'm hearing, it’s great!

Seth 13:57

Most of it's like, oh, I shouldn't say something. When I'm done with this. And then I get done with it. I get done with this. And I'm like, what was I supposed to do? Whatever, on to the next thing. So you had said in that email, though, that you recently conducted 25 interviews around the topic of End Times theology and its relationship to mental health issues.

I don't even know what that means. Like, I understand what those words mean. But walk me through. I don't know if any of those have released have any of those?

Dan 14:27

No, I was just working on them yesterday. They will…so we're expecting a baby in about six weeks. So they may come after? I don't think they'll come before the probably come out in the spring. But yeah, so it's four episodes like a four part thing. So okay, what does that mean? What it means is, so obviously, let's break it down and times theology…In particular, we're looking at the kind of Zeitgeisty, Left Behind Series, the kind of stuff that was popular in evangelicalism in the 80s and 90s. Especially, I mean, it started in the 60s and 70s. But, you know, I grew up in that you and I are roughly the same age, I can just tell visually. So, you know, the kind of thing that a lot of us grew up around, right? I have a line at one point, like, if you grew up evangelical, you can close your eyes and picture the cover of the Left Behind book, black background…

Seth 15:24

I can remember the first one came out.

Dan 15:26

So it's basically talking about that vision of the end times, which is also really tied up with Zionism and you know, all that stuff. And then asking, like, what, what are the mental health implications of basically what that was, and how that was lived out in about 20 people's lives. So not all the interviews, some of the interviews were like, you know, side material to help me understand the situation. But about 20 of them were people's lives stories and yeah, I probably could have done 10, it is a lot more work. And then eventually this is going to go toward my dissertation. So there has to be like a serious psychological element to that. I don't exactly know what that's going to be. But basically, you know, like were people anxious or depressed before they learned about this stuff.

A lot of kids got this stuff from the earliest age possible. They never knew a time in their Christian upbringing where Jesus is imminent return was not a part of it. What did it say about God? How did it interact with people's OCD symptoms or their panic attacks? You know, kind of stuff along those lines.

Seth 16:39

So I am 38… (not 38)

Dan 16:42

Yes. Okay. I'm 36

Seth 16:44

Yeah, no, 37…I’ll be 38 in a few months, whatever. Close enough. Yeah, so similar. Yeah, I can remember reading the left behind series. And I finished them up when I was at Liberty and at Liberty you could, at Liberty University, you could walk across the street to the Barnes and Noble and then if you're a student need any money, they have these really nice chairs, and you can just read the whole book…

Dan 17:07

Big time college habit of mine as well. Yeah

Seth 17:08

I read a lot of books that way, including, including textbooks.

Dan 17:12

No way that's elite!

Seth 17:15

It's probably illegal, but I don't know. But I just didn't have the money. But I can remember reading all those. And so you said just a minute ago that you said it causes anxiety, and that many people from a young age don't know any different? Can you talk about those two things, but as opposed to starting with anxiety? What do you mean, they don't know any different? Like, what are they being fed because I feel like a lot of people listening here. And because of the emails and the private messages that I get, they are still quasi one foot in, because I think that's still very common place. Just turn on any channel of preaching on Sunday morning, and all you'll get is fear and trembling and fire, and brimstone and, God you're so lucky that he just didn't quite he enough to kill you all the way.

And you're the elect, we're going to do it. So can you kind of break that apart of it? And then we'll delve into anxiety?

Dan 18:08

Yeah, so. Okay, there's a couple things. So for instance, I was introduced to end times thinking in sixth grade. But before sixth grade, I knew that Jesus loved me. I knew that he died for my sins. Like I had a concept of the Gospel of the Christian story that did not include the End Times.

A lot of people I interviewed never had that period. So from the earliest they can remember, it's like, Jesus loves you. He died for your sins, and he's coming back any day. So you got to get right with Him. Like that was baked in for them. And most of those people grew up in the south or the Midwest. I think there is a cultural sort of statistical likelihood, right? That's a little different than the West Coast, where I grew up. So that's that's one bit about it. The other thing you said was shooting….i'm kind of blinking was the last thing you said before I started?

Seth 19:01

uh…we could dovetail into anxiety but a lot of people listening here they send me messages and they are living in both avenues right now like their mom and dad still are there and they show up at Thanksgiving Christmas and they're like, I can't talk about this.

Dan 19:14

Oh, yeah. So one of the one of the women I interviewed, she her family's still every holiday, they will say things like, Well, yeah, but probably next year, we won't be here. And then she's like, you said that last year and the year before and she's been awakening to like, these unmet expectations. And I asked her a lot of follow ups about that because that's so interesting to me. And, she's actually in Washington, I thought about like asking to join for a family holiday sometimes just to like, like, talk to them a bit. Like, how can you think this year after year whenever you're you're, you're still here and many of you are in your 50s and 60s now; but there is something very sticky, I think about some of those ideas for people.

I mean, I don't know how else to describe it, because it's clearly irrational in like a technical sense. But if it's in the water you're swimming in, and if you don't perceive it as separable from the rest of the gospel, then I think you just go, Well, I guess this is just time. You know, you hear people say, like, live as if he could come tomorrow, but who knows if he's coming tomorrow? I think some people just think, well, this is how you do that. You expect him at any moment. Even if you're wrong for your entire life.

I tend to think that seems like a bad way to plan for the future. Just like kind of common sense, but not everybody shares that opinion. But the other thing you said that I wanted to hit on was basically combining this with like damnation and fear of hell and and kind of total depravity style theology. That was also a huge strain in these interviews is like, and it really varied because it varied on the kind of gospel you were taught as a kid. And this is kinda what we talked about the very beginning.

There are variations, variations exist. So some people had panic attacks about going to hell, or family members going to hell or whatever. And they already had that and, and the end time stuff, what it mostly did was sort of multiply the intensity because it's “soon”. So one way to describe it and one of the episodes is like, here's a common belief from a teenager. In one of these scenarios. Hell exists. Some people go there, some people go to heaven. I need to be right with God so that I go to heaven. But I'm a teenager, I'm not gonna die anytime soon. almost definitely I have a 2% chance of dying before my 60s. But if Jesus is coming back, then I may die much sooner. So I really better be right with God now, that's like, I heard that a bunch.

Seth 22:11

Out of the 25 people was was it like 23 out of 25? Or what was the other option that wasn't in the bunch of what people would have to think about that type of mindset?

Dan 22:22

No, so it doesn't really, one thing I should say. It's not a representative sample. So I can't do, I can't, with any sort of confidence, give any number, like any percentages, because I just did a Facebook call and said, Hey, did you have these experiences? If so, I'd like to interview you. So I have no idea in the general population.

Seth 22:46

Yeah. I mean, how many people deal with it? Yeah, I mean, of the people that you don't, that you spoke with.

Dan 22:51

It was quite a range, but I would say the idea of this is very so at least like 5 out of 20 had a you could lose your salvation type of a theology. So they literally, you know, somebody said, I could be driving down the road, get in a car accident. And if I said “shit”, right before I died, I go to hell because that's an unforgiven sin, and I can't die with any unforgiven sin on me. That's probably the extreme end. But that was the theology that he was raised with.

And then all the way up to people who, like myself would have said, no, I never was worried about losing my salvation. But, you know, my own anxiety was more about not getting to live my life and feeling panicky about that, or other people saying, I was taught that I couldn't lose it. But there was always things that were said like, but even the righteous will fall away. So that's some of the language that the end times people will quote, and they would say like one one person said even this one person in our life, who I thought was such a solid Christian, my mom would say, even that person could fall away.

So there's a real range, right, I would say, pretty evenly split, maybe among those type of options.

Seth 24:15

I'm curious, Dan, because you've got, you said five months, a semester, basically, of grad school under the belt in there.

Dan 24:24

Yeah, I have one semester under my belt.

Seth 24:26

So you already have the master's degree in something correct? Or is this the beginning of the masters?

Dan 24:28

No, I will get my masters like year three.

Seth 24:31

So it's part of the whole thing. Gotcha.

Dan 24:32

It's a long five year thing

Seth 24:34

As a college graduate, (laughter from Dan) because I want to try to qualify the answer, knowing that as I spoke to other people that are in the psychology field, they are very reticent to say something that could be inferred as representing a larger hole, which you've already done. So I just want to make sure that I give enough caveat there that you're free to answer.

So why in your experience, and in these interviews, and in some of probably some of the thoughts process personally behind it, why do you feel like and I'm gonna use the word addicted, the Church is addicted to this type of gospel.

Dan 25:09

Which type of gospel do you mean? Do you mean specifically related to the End Times or the kind of penal substitutionary atonement, Calvinism.

Seth 25:16

So, both of those I would say relate to fear. So one is fear of stay “right”. Stay in the church, do what I told you when I told you tithe 15% if you want to be extra special, you know, and that's, I know that I am overgeneralizing that, but I, those are some of the churches I grew up in some of the churches I still interact with, not my church. But, so there I think both of those both total depravity, penal substitution, that's also bound in fear. So I would root it down both to fear.

Dan 25:47

I guess I'd say anytime it's fear based. It's because it works. So here's some real basic neuroscience, our amygdala and the the part of our brain that we share with lizards. And all, you know many mammals, all mammals and many other animals, is it the base of our brain, that is our fight or flight stuff, that's our adrenaline gets pumped in, and you get the hell out of there. Or if you live in the modern world, and there's nowhere to run, and there's no bear, there's no actual bear to run from, you just get a panic attack and you have to leave the room and you get sweaty palms and you know, you have to smoke a cigarette, if you're a smoker, you know, whatever the thing is, right?

So if that's firing, the further away parts of your brain like your prefrontal cortex, where you do planning and decision making and rational choice, that's not firing. And in fact, your amygdala is blocking the route to your nervous system. It's calling the shots, and it's like standing in front, right? It's like literally getting in front of the rational part of you so that it can't work. So fear is really effective.

So first of all, fear is like totalizing. It keeps other parts of your brain from functioning.

Seth 27:08

Is that what that's called “totalizing”?

Dan 27:11

I mean, I'm just kind of using that I like it's, it's, yeah, it takes over when it's active. And it's also really effective. I mean, you could look at political speeches, you can look at, whatever. Whenever you want to really motivate people you make them afraid.

I think that one factor of what pastors and church systems end up doing, whether or not they have bad intentions, is that they find when they use fear that their messages more effectively received. And they find that organically, they don't have to want it to be that way. It just is that way because the way our brains are wired, so it's effective, so they repeat it. They are acting on incentives just like everybody else is. And they need their building paid for, and they need this ministry that they really believe in to be funded and this is how it has worked; and also they might themselves be afraid. So there's also if there are actually and I'm not psychoanalyzing any one person here, but if they are afraid of God, at their core, if the really primary thing they feel towards God is fear, and I don't mean awe and wonder, as in fear the Lord, I mean, be afraid of the Lord then they're going to pass that on. Because at the end of the day, that's going to be the most primal thing.

You might think “it would be so wonderful to be gay affirming”, but all the way back here. God will send me to hell if I’m wrong. But once you have that thought, you can't you can't go back to that it would be wonderful to be affirming thing. And I'm using that because I believe you have a T-shirt on that's referencing that issue.

Seth 28:52

Yeah.

Dan 28:53

So, you know, that's broad strokes what I would think but I'm not a psychologist, yet.

Seth 29:00

Sure fair enough. That's why I tried to give enough caveats there at the beginning. (music)

Seth 29:27

Earlier you said and I do want to dovetail back into it. So I, here's why it's taken me 27 minutes to get here. So currently my son struggles from anxiety that often is debilitating. And we're working through that with him, and we did counseling for years, just recently started other options and I've seen personally and for me it doesn't make any sense like the the lack of logic of panic, and I don't have a better way to see that where I look at it and I'm genuinely baffled of what to say, to help in this situation? And so I just usually punt to my wife. And I hope that one of us knows what to do. And usually she does because I something, Dan in my brain, just breaks were like, I don't understand how this is the thing right now. And because I don't understand how it's a thing, I also don't know how to do anything with it. If that makes any sense at all?

Dan 30:23

of course,

Seth 30:24

Which makes me feel like just an awful dad; and maybe in that moment, I am being one its probably something I need to get better at. But you talked about struggling with a panic disorder. And so if you're comfortable, can you kind of walk through like what was that for you, what is that?

Dan 30:38

My earliest memories of it are in third grade. And this is before I was introduced and time stuff. I somehow got a trigger, about thunder, and I was petrified of thunder. I would basically I would get a panic attack if Thunder happened. Now the thing about panic disorder that is different than generalized anxiety disorder, which is more like you're a worrywart, like you are a person who's kind of constantly worrying if things will go well, that's generalized anxiety. Panic disorder, primarily, your anxiety is about having more anxiety. So even though I wouldn't have been able to say that in third grade, I can look back on my behavior and say, I was worried about having one of these panic attacks.

So I would watch the weather report every morning before walking to school, I would play games on a sunny day with my friend called let's see if we can find a cloud to sort of calm my own anxiety about that there might be thunder later while I'm at school, and I don't have any there's nothing I could do about it.

Seth 31:40

The goal being no clouds

Dan 31:42

The goal being clouds. So it's totally irrational. And the funny thing is, I liked lightning, and I liked rain. So it wasn't like you don't mean it, just that's the way that panic works is you get a trigger, and then that neural pathway is created and it's a trigger for a long time I happen now I love thunder, I love thunderstorms, but for many years, it would freak me out. And the irrationality is part of it even when I got older, and I would have other, you know, in my 20s or whatever, I was still having panic attacks about people claiming to be the Antichrist or whatever.

And I already knew I didn't believe in an antichrist. But it doesn't matter the pathway was there already in my brain from sixth grade, and eighth grade. And you know, we can get into as many of that story as you want to, but like it was already well worn. And so once it's there, it doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. And then the other thing that's irrational as well is that once the panic attack triggers that beginning of that release of adrenaline and other hormones that has been triggered, those are going to go in and they are going to take their time to work your way through your system.

My dad, who's a therapist, helped me a lot in my 20s describing it, it's like, it's like riding a wave, that wave is going to crest. And it's just going to take a while. But eventually it's going to subside because it's a chemical thing. You now have 50 times or whatever the number is more adrenaline than you need in your system. And an hour from now, you'll have 10 times the adrenaline, and three hours from now you'll have two times you don't you know, whatever it is. Those don't, those aren't real numbers.

The fact that it's irrational is what makes it a panic attack. Often panic attacks come out of nowhere for people they don't even know what caused it; and that's just well documented, that happens.

Seth 33:42

Yeah, that's been my wife and I's experience with our son. We're just saying they're like, Yeah, what just what just happened there….on clarify on that neural pathway thing. So the pathway is for the trigger response of panic, not the thing that triggered the response, but the actual panic Highway, for lack of a really bad metaphor?

Dan 34:02

Yeah, actually, that's a great question. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know enough neuroscience. All I'm saying is that you something about it is is dug in, in a sense where once you have a trigger any other time you see that thing, it will trigger a similar release of hormones. Over time it can drop. But still, if I saw a headline today, you know, this man claims to be the Antichrist and his followers are getting 666 tattooed on their hands. I would still feel like just saying that out loud. I felt a tiny bit anxious

Seth 34:41

Right now?

Dan 34:43

Yeah, not not bad. Yeah, I mean, I'm fine.

Seth 34:44

Are you good to talk about that a bit?

Dan 34:48

Oh, totally.

Seth 34:49

Why the Antichrist for you?

Dan 34:49

So, yeah, so I think what it is, actually no one's ever asked me that. So that just happened to be something that happened when I was 23. This guy in in Miami area was making headlines about claiming to be Jesus. He was claiming to be the Antichrist, but he was also saying that was a good thing. It's very weird. He's a cult leader. He's dead now. But, and he was driving around and Rolls Royces. You know, he was a typical cult leader in a lot of ways. to backtrack in sixth grade, I was given a book. I think it was a book, it might have been a fancy pamphlet. It was a reworking of a very famous pamphlet called 88 reasons why the rapture will occur in 1988. This one was for 1996 I was 13 or 12 maybe. I freaked out.

I was like, Jesus is coming back in five months. I am only 12 I have never been naked with a woman. I've never had kids. I've never gotten married. never kissed a girl, at 12 all my life goals involved with women.

Seth 36:00

I mean, you could do all of that except for have the baby in five months though.
(laughter from both)

Dan 36:05

(Uhhh) I might not have been able to yet, but I don't have a precise puberty memory, puberty recall…

Seth 36:16

Its not required!

Dan 36:19

Anyway, um (laughs) so I had panic attacks, a bunch of them I couldn't sleep for…I had a hard time falling asleep for a month or two straight. So, once I did that for that long, then in eighth grade, we studied n times and my Christian/evangelical junior high, and we did it for a whole semester in Bible class.

So then, every other day I have Bible class, I'm reworking…I'm just feeling anxious about this and white knuckling it. What I should have done is talk to my parents and they could have exempted me from my class that would have been better. I didn't know that then. I didn't think that was an option and then by the time I hit 23, or whatever, and this this news story breaks, it's just so in there and also I, the the larger story of that is I had been drinking a bunch of caffeine and caffeine is not good for people with panic disorder and, and I was like increasing my caffeine because I thought it was soothing myself and it wasn't. And then the story hits on Dateline or 20/20 or something. And I just flip out!

I was in LA working on a buddy's record, I was co-producing it, I believe, before it was finished, and let the main producer finish it. I didn't sing any of my background vocals. I didn't. I wasn't there for his vocals. I just it was like one of the worst nights of my life. And so I don't know, this is a roundabout way of talking about it, but basically, it's it's once you get one trigger, then you have other ones. In 2008, a year later, I'm off caffeine (and) we're traveling in England on tour and our managers with us. And I asked him what he thinks about Obama because it's the election here. And he says he seems like a good guy. But politically, I think he's the end of the world. And I had panic attacks for a week. I mean, it's like it doesn'tI didn't think Obama was the end of the world. But hearing someone say that it reminded me and then, you know, some people said he would be the Antichrist. Of course, they say that about everybody.

Oddly, no one thinks that Trump could be…that's interesting. (laughter from Seth)

But like, you know, so that kind of stuff would just trigger me it just, it just does. I now understand it well enough that it won't trigger me for long. But once it's there, it's kind of there. And so one thing you may find with your son is that some of the same things might start giving him those attacks and one thing he'll eventually have to learn to do is recognize that those are triggers and sort of think and work through and exercise his way out of it. I mean, it's, it's not an easy thing to have but there are a lot worse things

Seth 39:00

Yeah, you talked about it being in remission is that just basically that recognizing this is happening? (And) I know how to handle this.

Dan 39:09

Yeah, I just mean, I don't really get panic attacks anymore. And that's partly therapy and medication. It's also, when I do start to get them, I'm just so much more aware of what they are. And so I can mentally I can kind of stop them in their tracks. And I have just much better coping skills now that I'm older. And I started getting those skills after that episode at 23. And you know, now it's 13 years later, and I just recognize it, more easily now

Seth 39:36

The 25 people, or any of those still engaged in faith, or do they all just kind of, you know, I can't do this. I'm done. I'm so done. Done with all this. I'm going to be with you at Christmas and the rest of the time you shut your mouth. I'm not coming back.

Dan 39:49

Yeah, great question. I asked everybody that if they're still Christian today, I also asked them if the end time stuff was a legitimate obstacle to their continuing in faith? I don't have the numbers in front of me. I haven't actually done the tallying, yet, but I want to say two thirds, half too two thirds are still Christians. And the rest are not anymore and it was an obstacle for a lot of them, but not all of them.

Seth 40:21

For me personally and I need to do an entire series on eschatology, because you're right there is the one Jerry B. Jenkins, Tim LaHay, Kirk Cameron, badly acted Nicolas Cage remake of Nikolai Carpathia, which is a great name by the way. It's fantastic.

But that's only one view of eschatology. There's so many others that aren't pre-tribulation and I should probably do that. The problem is for me Dan, eschatology holds so little, I just don't really care.

Because I don't see…for me eschatology when I was growing up in church was always used as a way to have just as much care for today, but with absolutely zero care for what I needed to do tomorrow; as in relation to those that are in community around me. And by community, I mean, ecological community, global community, school community, church community, because I've got to make it that right for today and tomorrow will quote unquote “worry about itself”.

Versus now I feel more like antichrist is anyone that is acting in a way opposed to the shalom of God. And even that could possibly, probably, get me branded as a heretic by a lot of people and I don't care anymore…

Dan 41:38

Sounds like NT Wright to me.

Seth 41:42

Well he’s a smart guy…

Dan 41:43

I don't think he's a heretic, right. People don't think he's a heretic do they?

Seth 41:48

On certain things I guess. I mean, I think somebody is everybody's heretic, right?

Dan 41:52

Yeah, maybe KJV only people would think Wright’s are heretic; but everybody is to them.

Seth 42:00

What do psychology and theology have to contribute to one another? Like, why is that something that interests you at the intersection there?

Dan 42:07

Yeah, well, I guess the main autobiographical reason is that around the time of the election, or actually probably the GOP nomination, I was like, “What's going on here, this is interesting?” Just kind of that basic idea that like, oh, a lot of these people that raised me, said very opposite things about Bill Clinton, than they're saying about Donald Trump.

And I just thought, that is a puzzling psychological phenomenon, and I went to, or just societal phenomenon. And I found this book, The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt, somebody must have recommended it to me. And I read that book and I just had a light bulb moment. I just, I read it and I thought, this is a better explanation than any theological explanation I might come up with, about, you know, using some theological language for why they've fallen from the path or I've fallen from the path; or what I was like, no, it's in, in a sense, it's just psychology at work.

Now, I would say there's no such thing as just psychology. I think psychology is theological, in the sense of, it tells us the kind of beings that God created. But I found the psychological answer so much more satisfying, in a much more elegant way, that explained my experience better. And yet, I am forever interested in theology because I am a person of faith. I have an active faith, I have a prayer life. All the things that are most important to me, in some way connect back to my relationship with God.

And so if psychology is getting me better explanations, then that is a tool in service of what…the things of value, right, which are theological in nature, at least, you know, they're not systematic theology or whatever, but they are, they are theological in that they relate to the ultimate things. So that's kind of one way of saying it.

Seth 44:22

You brought up three things that I hadn't, well, one of these I had planned on asking you, but two things. And I guess you brought them up, and they were words that I wasn't expecting to get into today.

One of which is a definition of the gospel, because you talked about the gospel without this specific end time theology. So I do want to know what that is. And then you've also brought up the word atonement, which I've done, I think an episode on atonement way back, like Episode 20. For those that want to go in the Wayback Machine although it is still probably the number two or number three episode of the entire podcast…

Dan 44:58

Mine is too, mine is up there. Yeah, the top

Seth 45:01

Yeah, the top center (around) hell, hell, atonement, hell, hell. And then NT Wright; because it’s NT Wright.

Dan 45:10

I just did this and I don't do a lot of repeated ones but mine's gay, gay affirming, and can non Christians can be saved. And then two purity culture(s) in a row.

I did do two on that. And that's three and four. Yeah, but atonement theories, which was one of my first ones to is in the top five or six or whatever.

Seth 45:32

Yeah, for Dan Koch, what is the gospel then if you're going to say, this version of the gospel with this end times theory about here's one of the reasons that you get saved, so that you don't, you know, sit you don't burn in hell or whatever. However, that's going to be preaching and don't, don't get left behind twinkling of an eye, etc, etc. What is the gospel?

Dan 45:53

Well, so the one that I was taught before I was exposed to end times thinking was just kind of standing penal substitution, although not in a Calvinist strain, we were a nondenominational church. I'm sure there were some Calvinists and some non Calvinists in the church. I don't think any of the staff members were Calvinist that was never kind of heavy. So just kind of a standard four spiritual laws kind of a thing. If you know what those you know, there's the chasm. Jesus is the bridge. You go across the bridge, so you can be with God. So that's what I was given then. But it sounds more like you're curious what I think it is now?

Seth 46:34

Yes, today.

Dan 46:37

Okay. So, in terms of atonement, there are two different ways of thinking about what the atonement signifies. And maybe you could say it's both but it could be one or the other. The first camp is it does something ontologically, metaphysically, there is, in some sense, literally a separation. And it accomplishes removing the separation. So that would be, that's one way of seeing the atonement.

Seth 47:12

And that separation is me and the divine?

Dan 47:14

Me and the divine, yeah. So there is something that happens with Christ's resurrection, or the moment that someone you know, accepts Christ or something, where a status is shifted in the cosmos, in some sense in the mind of God in some sense.

The other view is that the atonement shows us what God is like. So God wants to explain to humanity what God is like, and the atonement or the events that lead to atonement, you know, so the death and resurrection or what have you; the incarnation is a big part of that are sort of God trying to tell us what God's like.

I'm more in the latter camp. And there's kind of complicated reasons for that. One of those reasons is that I don't, I can't really understand…I've never understood the blood sacrifice thing I've never understood how a God who could create the universe, possibly many universes, each containing billions of galaxies, which each galaxy has billions of stars in it, would like require blood on this planet made from red blood cells….you know what I'm saying? It just seems like the kind of thing that early people would have thought was true, but probably isn't true.

And I'm not trying to be a chronological snob or l anything, it just, they didn't understand the size of the universe in understand what blood was, you know, whatever. It's beautiful poetry that in that sense. And then the other thing is, I think about people on other creatures on other planets. You know, like, I don't, I can't imagine that like Christ's resurrection. On Earth affects some sort of universal cosmological change on other planets. And there's so many other planets that like, there's probably other creatures that God loves. Given how creative our God is. I don't know that to be true. I don't think there are any in the Milky Way. For instance, I'm not like an aliens truther.

I think the Fermi paradox is true, like, they should be around if they were in the Milky Way by now. So they're probably not but the Milky Way is one of billions of billions. Or I guess the Milky Way is one of billions of galaxies, so do that math. I feel like I just got real nerdy there….

Seth 49:42

I'm with you. So I love it. So first off sci-fi is my jam, sci-fi and theology is my jam. I just finished it at the end of November I chatted with Paul Wallace. He wrote a book called Love and Quasars. The dude is literally an atomic physicist and I he also teaches at a seminary. And we talked about that one of the most mind blowing parts of his whole book is he tried to give scale just to our galaxy.

And he's like, you know, and he gave everything like, this is a pea, and this is a blueberry and this would be a beach ball. And so he started at the Washington Monument, and that would be the sun. And then like, Earth is at I think the Abraham Lincoln Memorial and it's like the size of an acorn.

And he's like, you know, the next closest star, Proxima Centauri, I think is what it's called, or Proxima something, is basically on the beach on the west end of Hawaii. Like if you give it to scale, and it's the size of a beach ball, I'm like that's the scale and that's just have the closest star in the Milky Way for the billions of stars. And the Milky Way is just one little bitty arm of this entire huge thing that we're….anyway so yeah, nerd out all you want. I'm with it….

Dan 50:58

Yeah. So I mean, I think the Gospel for me is something like the creator of the universe knows and loves you. That's the gospel.

And I know that a lot of Christians are not satisfied with that. But I am. I don't think I need anything more than that. I experience that God through the Christian tradition, which includes things like Trinitarian doctrine and the death and resurrection of Christ, and I affirm all that stuff it is part of the tradition. But ultimately, for me, it all comes down to wait, God loves me? God wants to be in some sort of relationship with me? There's just nothing crazier than that. Or better than that. That's it. And that's the only real thing. I want to make sure if I'm trying to preach the gospel that people understand. You know?

I am an evangelist in a sense of just like you are; we do these shows and we obviously care about getting stuff out there.

Seth 51:55

Does this make me an evangelist, is that what you're saying?

Dan 51:57

I mean, yeah. Like you are evangelical, small e.

Seth 52:03

I’m just not happy with that word or at least what's happened with the word. So it's like calling me a Browns fan who wants to be a Browns fan?

Dan 52:13

Well, it's pretty good being a Niners fan these days.

Seth 52:18

Oh man, yeah, I'm a Cowboys fan. me and my boss were joking. He's a Eagles fan. And we were joking, you know which one of us is going to lose our way into the playoffs? And I was like, yeah that's about right.

Dan 52:29

yeah. That was rough (the season) for you guys.

Seth 52:30

Final question and answer it however you want. And there's a method to the madness of this question. Although I don't know I've said it out loud-why. And so I plan to interview other faiths intentionally this season, as many other faiths as I possibly can.

And I have a certain set of questions because the goal is to not be stupid, and to learn something, because I don't think I have any stranglehold, nor does my faith tradition, on truth, or other facets of God. And so I'm going to ask them, when you say the word, God, what is that for you? And so I'm going to ask you, like if someone said, Yeah, I understand you saying, God knows me. But when you say God, what are you actually saying, as best as you can say, which I'm aware of how big of a question that is?

Dan 53:18

Yeah, it's a it's, it's a lot. God is…God is the entity, mind, agent, whatever you want to call it, that is capable of bringing the universe into existence. And that is present to every creature at every moment, luring us toward rightness towards goodness towards love and beauty and justice, and pervading and I don't know, like, like that old classic doctrine of God sustaining the universe at every moment is…I think that's right.

And I mean, I would consider myself a pen theist at this point, which is that, like, everything in the universe is within God. But God is also more than the universe. And so yeah, or I guess it's hard to know what to think about matter. And, you know, all that stuff. So I'll just say that. Is that a pretty good answer?

Seth 54:28

It's your answer. They're all going to be great answers. Yeah. Yeah. Just a little side note, I didn't want to. I wanted to make sure that listeners of the show knew that I wasn't asking people that weren't Christian.

Dan 54:44

Yeah, you want to ask them too.

Seth 54:46

I want to make sure that we're gonna be fair here. And I'm actually really excited to see what all these answers are.

Dan 54:50

So I think that's so cool, man. I'm uh, I am what I call a robust pluralist. So I think that God is absolute interacting with people and other faiths on the regular, just like he's interacting with Christians. And so I think that would be very cool, to learn more about that it's a little outside the scope of my own show. So maybe I'll have to listen to yours to get that.

Seth 55:15

Absolutely. There's a few that are already recorded for January. And so I didn't get the answer in those. But whatever I can change the fiscal year. I'm the CEO. Do what I want to do. So I'm a big fan of puns.

And so here we go. I want to make sure as people hear the last of you that I give you and just let you know you have permission to go ahead and tell them where they need to go to get a hold of more of you.

Dan 55:42

(Laughter)

Yeah, the podcast is called You Have Permission. You can get it anywhere you listen to podcasts. Youhavepermissionpod.com. Yeah, that's, that's about it, man.

Seth 55:53

Perfect. Well, Dan, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Dan 55:55

Thank you so much Seth.

Seth Outro 56:02

I want to read you something from Dan's website. And you'll hear this as you go down and you click subscribe to his podcast because I listened to about 15 of his episodes before I chatted with him, and they're really good. Dan is a great conversationalist, and he has some really important questions. Here's what he says.

For anyone that finds themselves asking difficult questions about God, science, prayer, fate, suffering, and so many other things. So many things that you've been given bad answers to, you need to know that those are important questions. So you have permission to take both Christianity and the modern world very seriously.

And I really love that. And if you listen to the show, you'll hear him say that at the beginning of each episode, but I think that's important. What we believe about what happens when we die absolutely matters. It matters for then, and it matters for now, and it matters for the way that we treat one another today and tomorrow. how that affects us mentally matters how it affects our church mentally matters.

Because as it affects us each individually that is how it's going to affect the congregations and the church globally for everyone else. How we engage in thoughts about the end times are deeply important. So I really hope that this scratched an itch for the beginning of some of you. I know I think it did for me, that I really need to dig in more into the concepts of eschatology, and end times. Because to be honest, I haven't given it much thought in many, many years, I read all of those Left Behind books and listen to a lot of those sermons. And the left behind books were entertainment for me, and I really enjoyed reading them, but they didn't really have any hold over me but I realize I'm just one person. I'm an engagement it further. I don't know when but I'll try to make sure that I do that.

The music from today is as many of the past have been from the Salt of the Sound. stuff is great. find links to them in the show notes. They're doing some amazing things. You'll also find links to Dan’s stuff in the show notes well.

Be blessed everybody and I'll talk to you next week.