Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Geoffrey 0:00

That's a worldwide Yeah, that's a worldwide statistic. And where that comes from is the International Labor Organization that recently identified 41 million victims of human trafficking worldwide. But what we did is we took out forced marriage from that number and landed on the 27 million, there's about 15 million forced marriages. And so we zeroed in on that 27 million number. So that's a global number that includes sex trafficking, that includes labor trafficking, other types of forced labor, etc. And so that's where that number comes from. The other statistic that you just mentioned, the other data point is that the United States is identified as one of the or the greatest consumer of human trafficking worldwide. So we are driving that demand.

Seth Intro 0:50

Everybody, welcome back to the show. I am Seth. This is the Can I Say This At Church podcast. today's conversation is one To give you a heads up on I, we we broach upon the topic of not necessarily in detail, but just the overarching topics of sex trafficking. And so if that is something that you're uncomfortable with, I might would recommend, do just delaying this. Well, I'm I would recommend skipping this one. But I do want to say that topic very much matters. It is most certainly a very real thing. And as I prepared for this conversation, I was tremendously heartbroken. And so with that in mind, I don't really have much to say for an introduction. I'm excited for you to hear this conversation that I had with two of the people that were behind a documentary that comes out on I think January 23, called blind eyes opened, which is a movie about the truth around sex trafficking specifically in America. And, yeah, here we go.

Seth 2:20

Jeff and Carrie Rogers, welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast, from what I understand you're in a much nicer area of the United States than I am. I live on the Blue Ridge Parkway, and it's like seven outside. And so I'm unhappy to hear that you're in Florida. And I'm quite jealous, because I'm sure it's not seven there. But Welcome to the show. I'm excited that you're here. And I am slightly intimidated by the conversation that will have about the topic of what you some of the work that you're doing. But I will table that for a minute. And so for those that are listening, what would you want us to know about you kind of each of you, what makes you you, what makes you tick, and kind of how did you get into what you're doing? doing right now?

Unknown Speaker 3:01

What do you go first? You omega? Sure?

Karrie 3:04 Um, well, okay, um, it was 2011. And my husband, where he can explain us from the corporate world, and I was kind of already a mother of two, I had my third child, three boys. And we really felt like God was calling us to do something with media. And neither one of us are from that background at all. I did dental hygiene, and had to be God, because it was something totally would never do. And, I mean, my personal story was, and I think it's kind of cool. So, um, you know, you kind of play these games with God, you're like, Well, God, if this is you, then kind of ask God like a sign. And so I gotta, this is you. And this is really he'd been kind of working on my heart and I think he was working on my husband's heart, but he was preparing mine, because I was going to have to like support what he was going to ask to do. And we can get to that a little later. But I remember I was like literally feeding my third child. He was nine months old. And I was having this conversation with God in my head. And I was like, okay, God, if this is really you, then just having quit his job right now and walk through the door. And it was like 90 seconds later, the door opens and a normal wife's reaction would be like, Oh, hey, Honey, you're home. But for me, I was like, I was like 15 in the afternoon, I remember the time because I looked at the clock. And I said, What are you doing home? And he looked at me and he's like, and literally, my thought in my head was just having quit his job right now. If this is your Lord hadn't just quit his job walk to the door. So the next words out of his mouth were I quit my job. I was like, instantly happy like, Oh my gosh, I heard from you, Lord, but then Fear was like, What have I asked for? Like, I was like, I asked her this. And now I'm like, gonna have to go through this trial. And so then he laughed and said, I'm just kidding. I can only close because I got to go out to dinner tonight. And I was so relieved, because I was like, Thank you, God, that you were merciful enough to like, make it a joke. But that's all I needed. From that moment on. I was in. I mean, they were my exact words, make him quit his job. And so for me, and I'm just kind of giving you the exchange for me. I was like, I don't care what's coming next. I'm going to say yes, yeah. Yes, Lord. Yeah. And then I'll kind of let him take off from there because that's just my little personal nugget. That was my god wink. Seth Price 5:49 Jeff, how often do you quit your job on a whim?

Geoffrey 5:53 That's a good question. It actually wasn't a window. I'll tell you what. It's been a journey. I mean, I had 15 years in the corporate world. About 13 and a half of them at IBM, and just an incredibly blessed career, but they, at the time, our desire and chasing after God was really just exploding. And so for me, the way I like to describe it is, it's like, every rung on that corporate ladder became more and more hollow for me. And so we really did know over a period of time that something was come in. I mean, we even began to plan our finances accordingly, and really felt like there was a calling of God that was coming upon us. And then it was through a series of events that it finally did get to the point where we agreed, you know what, we are going to do this, we are, I am going to leave the corporate world. And we're going to go into ministry. And I do like to say that God only shows you a very small portion of what's around the next corner to get you to turn that corner because, you know, had we known what would happen over the last 9889 years now. It's been a journey. It's been an incredible road. So it certainly wasn't on a whim, but it it's been Calling and it it was a major decision for our family that's for sure.

Seth Price 7:06

We've used the word it. Can you either one of you kind of tell me what it is? If we were to give that a name? What is it?

Geoffrey 7:15

So the calling has been when we left the corporate world, we started the organization now the ministry that we're running called the ships of Tarshish. And so that comes from Isaiah 60. And the calling with that ministry is to use media, to engage in what we would deem to be critical social issues that we really feel like the church needs to pay more attention to needs to get involved in. And so in 2011, that's the journey that we started when we say it is working with the shift of tortious ministry to do just that.

Seth Price 7:52

Yeah. What are some of those issues? Geoffrey 7:56 So the first project that we focused on, it's called surrender the secret And so what surrender the secret was, or is is a 10 episode Christian reality TV series focused on post abortion recovery. And so we filmed five women in Charlotte, North Carolina, we hired a professional crew, we hired a professional producer, because we're not from this industry. We certainly don't know what it takes to produce stuff like this. So we hire professionals to do that. And so we hot we hired this crew and film these women as they went through a Bible study, helping them through the healing transformation of Jesus Christ dealing with the pain of the past abortion. And so that was the very first project that we did. Is there anything you wanted to add on that?

Carrie 8:45

Well, I was just gonna say that, um, I'm growing up in the church. I have a huge bloodline of pastors, Sunday school teachers from church God and I know for me In my past that testimony story, that I chose an abortion when I was 17. And I have I had, I've lived with that because being a child of the church that was going to really shame on a family. Yeah. And so as we kind of started having this radical movement of the Lord Jesus in our family and our hearts and just being set free from that myself, we really felt called to see the I realized in church on sanctity for human life Sunday, they said here in Tampa, there was over 8000 babies aborted that year. And the Lord showed me the women. It was the first time I realized there was more than one woman in this hiding. And so it was like there was this awakening like I have to do something about This but I didn't know what that meant. So as my husband was being kind of called as well into this type of like, it was like a like a like a calling like a career change, we begin to Lord begin to show us as we sort we kind of like we're supporting pro life pregnancy centers and we're starting to get involved and we realized, with this platform of this media, the multitude of women that could be reached was unlimited. And so we didn't know that's what the Lord the first show the Lord was going to do. Was take us at that was like our founding a ministry foundational piece. And so, um, that was like, for us, looking back, I can see how that was God setting us up to where we even come into now, but we really wanted to help the church reaches when Because I'm not a young woman, I mean, and I'm thinking nobody's offered anything for the woman that's had that choice. Yeah. And so we recognize why isn't the church talking about this? And I still think pastors know how I agree. No, when we show this show, I mean, we've had thousands of women, right. And thank you for producing the show. Women who have suffered in silence, they have not been able to forgive themselves. And they're watching these women go through transformation, forgiveness, they're watching them go through anger, and they're like, Wait a second, I can go to the walk for life. You know, a lot of women won't go. There's one in four women who've had an abortion, and they may get pregnant without the man. So there's men suffering, too. So there's really a breakdown a lot of Lost Children, you know, and broken families. And so, we felt like when we made this show like it would be A tool for pastors that maybe didn't know how to talk about it to know about it to say watch this show or and and then they can get into these groups themselves and go through it if they want themselves some women don't want to go through they'd rather watch somebody else and and just get free that way. But so it was really a personal mission that I didn't know the Lord was going to take and expand it with the media. We didn't know that was gonna be the first show.

Seth Price 12:27

It's it's a small first show. I would agree as well. Yeah, small air quotes small. Yeah. A lot of pastors and I've been privileged to speak with so many from this show, but then also talking deeply with my pastors. I think often they'll admit, you know, they don't we get all this seminary training in this hermeneutical training and exegetical training and all this other training, but we don't really get traumatic training and a lot of times the the members of the church need counseling, that a pastor is not always the best person to give another they don't need come alongside that meant that that that discussion, but not the only part of it. Yeah, yeah, I fully agree. Yeah, it's people don't I feel like that's why people don't talk about it in church, because how can you literally how can I, which is kind of, again, thematically some of the reasoning for the name of the Church of this show, is know, these conversations matter. The topics are bigger, and they're worth time. So I want to pivot to the reason that you're here. So you have a Is it a documentary or a movie or a blend of the two? What would you call your documentary? That is called blind eyes open? I think that's what it's called from and I didn't write that down. I think, is that what it's called blind eyes open? Yes, yes. I'll be honest. So the young lady that said that coordinated this meeting today. She sent it to me and said, You know, it would probably make more sense if you watched it ahead of time. And so I tried to watch it and I got about 30 minutes in And I just got so depressed. And so I had to close the laptop. I tried to go to bed, couldn't go to bed went into work the next day, and even my staff was like, you, you look sick as I didn't sleep well. And they're asking why. And I tried to tell them why. And they were like, That's awful. And then they kept asking questions, and I didn't have any answers. And so I tried the next day to watch more, it took me a full three and a half, four days to watch what normally I can sit down and watch TV for an hour and a half, two hours most of the time when it's something that doesn't really have any impact. So I want to talk a bit about that document because I think it's just some of the stats in there. The stories in there from the women that are in there like it's I don't know there's there's really not a lot of words. Can you tell us either one of you a bit about kind of the genesis of Why? Because blind eyes open is talking about sex trafficking in America and so why like why that topic? Why now Like, kind of walk me through that?

Geoffrey 15:03

Well, the way we got into that topic is we talked about surrender the secret, that first reality series we did, and the distribution of that really took off and went into tremendous number of homes in the United States and then internationally as well. But as the distribution of it began to taper down, we talked with our board of directors and really began to pray, God, what's our next topic, and one of the board members introduced us to this topic of human trafficking that we didn't know anything about. And so I remember going to the first seminar we went to and began to learn some of these truths, and probably quite like you. The first time I ever went to a seminar and began to learn some of these real statistics. It's just jaw dropping, and how can I not know this before? Yes, but once I learn it, I can't unlearn that. And so very quickly, we got together and our board of directors agreed. You know what, we really do. Believe like this is the next topic for us to focus on. And so we began the production of blind eyes open, which is a Christian documentary about the truth of sex trafficking in America. And so and again, it's to reach the church, just like with the first this is to engage the church engage Christians around the country, in this topic, to make sure First of all, that they understand the truth of what's happening here in America. Most people when they learn about sex trafficking or human trafficking, most times they're thinking it's something overseas, right? In Thailand or Indonesia, or somewhere over there, right, like a lot of the movies portray? Yes, more and more people are becoming aware of the truth, that it's a major problem here inside of the United States. And so from the very beginning six years ago, this production, the sole focus has been to uncover and show the truth of what's happening here inside of our own borders, with our own children in our own nation. being purchased, bought and sold and raped and US citizens. And so it's an epidemic portion problem here in the United States. It's growing more rapidly than it's declining. And so that's really the truth of what we're trying to expose through this documentary.

Seth Price 17:16

What are some of those statistics like? So I wrote and I can't remember if you said it at the beginning, or if it was one of the opening salvos there of texts, but there's what did it say 27 million people in slavery, and that the United States is one of the largest consumers of human trafficking. So is that 27 million in America or worldwide? Like

Geoffrey 17:39

how does worldwide Yeah, that's a worldwide statistic. And where that comes from is the International Labor Organization that recently identified 41 million victims of human trafficking worldwide. But what we did is we took out forced marriage from that number and landed on the 27 million, there's about 15 million forced marriages and so was zeroed in on that 27 million number. So that's a global number that includes sex trafficking that includes labor, trafficking, other types of forced labor, etc. And so that's where that number comes from the other statistic that you just mentioned, the other data point is that the United States is identified as one of the or the greatest consumer of human trafficking worldwide. So we are driving that demand. And so those are a couple of global numbers. But when we talk about what's happening here inside the United States, we identify there are well over 100,000 kids in America, these are American kids that are in America being purchased for sex every single day. So it's a major major problem. 60 to 70% of those kids are coming out of foster care. Yeah. So foster care is the major major feeder for this problem.

Seth Price 18:52

So Carrie, from, from what I understand you helped script the documentary correct or you did script the documentary He wrote, Well,

Carrie 19:00

I'll tell you, we all worked on it. Because I had the we have a volunteer board. And I think because I was the one that was already home, it kind of became my main project. So um, yeah, yeah. But we all worked on it. But yes, it was. It fell back on my lap. Probably the most. Seth Price 19:28 Yeah. So how do you approach a topic like that when you want to make something so you said it took six years so how do you how do you approach a top How do you even begin to put together a project like that like, just from not from a production standpoint, but from like a heart set? Like how, how do you do that?

Carrie 19:47

Well, I'll tell you what, God definitely did it. Anybody who knows us in our board will tell you this was a miracle. I think it was probably went through At least seven scripts. And God just blew everyone up. I think the script laid on my floor for three years and little teeny pieces. And it was probably written. Well, I don't know, do you want to like tell them what we had to kind of go through? Like it was a lot of spiritual warfare.

Unknown Speaker 20:26

And was

Geoffrey 20:29

a lot of ups and downs. I mean, there was some legal issues that we got into with the former producer that was resolved amicably. So it's just really been, I mean, it's been an absolute journey over the last six years. And so like, like Kerry said, I mean, it was multiple iterations of a script. We started with kind of a treatment. So when the production began, we, we didn't just kind of go out there with a camera and just start filming people. I mean, there was a tremendous amount of prayer that went into it. Tremendous amount of planning, identifying who it was. That we really felt called to be part of the documentary. And then, in the beginning had a show treatment where we kind of described how we thought the show would flow. And so that was kind of the basis of where it started. But from that point on, though, it just really took on almost a life of its own. And we filmed six survivors from around the country. Yeah, that are really the mouthpiece of, of telling their stories. And then we have other people in freeze different churches, different organizations, etc, that really feed in some commentary around those stories, but it's really the survivor stories that are the red kind of a common thread throughout. And so they really helped to lead the process as well, I think, for Carrie to write this but I will tell you just watching her labor on putting this thing together, it was an extraordinary thing because we're we had over 50 interviews with each interview being an hour and a half, maybe an hour

Unknown Speaker 21:57

or two one with four Yeah,

Geoffrey 21:58

one was for but On average, probably an hour to two hours. So we're talking over 100 hours of interview footage, that I truly think that she memorized to the point where she could identify, okay, what's going to come next? So it was, it was just an incredible process to see this come together, but absolutely, Holy Spirit led. And I think at the end of the day, the the main objective was to be obedient to what God had called her to do, and called our board to do to put this story together. Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 22:30

yeah, before

Carrie 22:31

I do want to share, this is a cool thing. So the way the way the Lord guided me This is a cool story. I would go to bed and it would like run in my head. And he would give me literally he showed me a clip come together with another clip. So I would wake up the next morning and I would go and I would find that clip. And I would dig through the transcript. And I knew kind of where it was. And I would piece that. And I remember pacifically, the two people he showed me, and I pieced them together. And then I would work and work and work. And I knew I was on track when I got to those two pieces, they made sense. And that's how it lasted for a long, long time, and I couldn't make it come until it was ready. Yeah. And then I would go and I because I, you know, I had I was homeschooling. So I would work on this, between 3am and seven. And I would stay up and he'd go to bed and he'd be like, I'm going to bed and if you like getting to 12 o'clock at night,

Seth Price 23:48

you know, like I'm almost there. I'm almost there.

Carrie 23:51

And so I am so glad to be able to sleep. I couldn't get it and I would pray and go God, please give it to me. I would recognize it was always a tiny and that's what made it fun and enjoyable. But then it made it miserable, really honest, because I just wanted to be done. But God wouldn't let me it was in May.

Seth Price 24:42

I can't imagine constantly going to bed thinking about the subject matter for that many days in a row like, honestly. I can't Yeah, yeah, I can't, I can't imagine. So I want to ask. So from what you have gathered all the information over all those years in the interview, that Ours and all the different ministries because throughout the documentary there are some of the survivors have gone on to create their own ministries which I found beautiful that out of it just found it beautiful. But why if you could flip a switch or four switches tomorrow and somehow or another shine a spotlight on it, what would change like in our churches or in our industries or in our I don't even know what the industries are like with with the knowledge that you have like how but besides talking about it for that one month out of the year, you know when we everybody says ended like what actually would need to change to move the needle to both lower consumption but also possibly change hearts to make the need for consumption also decrease.

Carrie 25:50

Okay, the key is the heart that we saw even on this film, it has been From the day we started the heart. And we've all had to go through just our own hearts and what we were willing to take on and what we weren't in the trust with God. So I feel like for this film, it has always been the heart, like God is trying to reach the hearts and until there's like a heart change. Yeah, we're not going to end this problem. And only Jesus can do that. That's why he is really the answer are survivors and I know you didn't get to watch it all. But the survivors in there, they get into their piece where they talk about how God worked in their heart. Seth Price 26:41 I finished it. Oh, you did? I didn't finish it. Yeah, I just couldn't do it in one sitting. And just a bit of context, the way that I consume media, so I can read like a 300 page book in two and a half hours and retain most of it. College was never really difficult and thinking of like transition of like, I'm transcribing all the episodes of this show, like I can almost to the second usually drill down to when somebody said something. I did finish it. It just I, I don't do well with emotions. And I watched it 14 feet from both of my daughters while they slept. And yeah, and

Carrie 27:21

it's real.

Seth Price 27:22

Yeah, I yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so I hear that. And so as I talked with, so I've been talking about this with a few friends, some of which aren't Christian, and they won't accept the Jesus answer. And just because they're not Christian, not that that's right or wrong. That is where they're at. However, there is not just Christians that consume sex trafficking. And so what do you think from what you've learned? We could actually like if they had something needs to change, it's black and white, be it regulatory Be it shining a light on this, that or the other like, what is it that would make it change? because things change when the light gets shine on, you know, you have, you know, the metoo movement in the church, you have the metoo movement outside of the church like things have changed, or at least they seem to have. And so what would that be like, for this issue? Like what, what needs to be that?

Geoffrey 28:18

Well, one thing I'll mention, it comes from the name right blind eyes open. It's very intentional, why it's called that it's because we find so many people across the country today, either intentionally or unintentionally, are turning a blind eye to this issue. A lot of times, it's just because it's such a horrific issue they just don't want to pay attention to Yes, the problem is, with blind eyes turn, the problem continues to perpetuate. And so we've got to get eyes open to the reality of what's happening. And so awareness is obviously key. But then, what's one of the things the church can do to get involved in will certainly not only raising awareness within the congregation but also engaging in victim services. This is Very important that people and organizations and churches can understand who are working, who are already working within their community, to help reach victims of sex trafficking within their own community, and to engage with them and help those organizations to thrive. So on one end of the spectrum, which we call the back end of the spectrum, it's helping to rescue helping to restore those who have been rescued out of this. But we also recognize that we can't open enough safe homes, we can't have enough victim services in this country to end the problem, because it's really, when we look at this, it's a supply answer to a demand problem. So the real reason we have sex trafficking is because there is the demand. And so what can we do to begin to curtail that demand? Well, one of the things that church can do is to talk about it. So again, gauging people in the discussion, to have them aware, but also to make them aware of where do you think truly find one of the roots of why this is occurring in the United States. Why do we have an insatiable desire for sex growing with children? Where's that coming from? And we can identify the number one fueling factor to this problem in the United States is pornography. And we call it the downward spiral into depravity we address this also in the film, but back that pornography is really fueling this problem across the country. Because just like with drugs, studies are now showing that pornography is highly addictive physiologically in the brain. And at the same pornography doesn't provide the same level of arousal after being viewed once. And so what we have is really this what we call this downward spiral into depravity where individuals who are consuming porn on a regular basis, they feel a need to digest and consume more violent, more deviant and younger pornography and so it's the downward spiral into this depravity. That they then can't get out of. And there's a certain portion of those individuals then who want to actualize what they've been visualizing. And so that's why really, we see this problem increasing, because we've said many times that a man doesn't wake up one day when he's 40 years old and decide to have sex with a 12 year old. But that's not how it happens. There's a process over a period of years that occurs to where that begins to happen. And so, on the topic of pornography, there it is, again, the church has got to grab hold of this topic, and address this from the pulpit because we know statistically 60 to 70% of men in America are literally looking at pornography, or addicted to it. And that statistic is the same inside the church and outside the church. And so it's 30% of women. And so it's time really that the church also begins to engage in that topic. If we can get ahold of that one, we can save the next generation from even becoming addicted and driving the demand in the first place. So really, this is a generational issue, much like abortion. And obviously that was our first topic that we focused on so much like abortion, we really believe this is a societal issue. And it's a generational problem that is likely going to take generations or decades to really begin to make substantial differences in this country. But we believe that that can be done or we wouldn't be doing this. We truly believe that with the church engaging in this magnitude, that something can really be done about this. What would you if if I was a social services person or a foster parent or something like that in those circles if a lot of these children are coming out of the foster care system, and I don't know the statistics there, and if it was in the video, I don't I don't remember it. How could we address that? Because the social services are already overworked. Like I don't know how to. I just don't understand how to fix it. So what would you what would either of you do to kind of say, Hey, this is something that is impactful. It's something That's already regulated. It's something that already has accountability. Here's what we should tweak to help these children that are in the foster care system that are being taken advantage of. In the statistic there is about 70%. So about seven out of foster care, yes, about 70% of the kids just say this correctly, about 70% of the kids that are trafficked in America are coming out of the foster care system. And so one of the things I would say is for the church to get involved in the foster care system for individuals, for families, to either foster kids, or adopt kids, we've heard this statistic before that if every church in America could adopt one child that's in the foster care system, you wouldn't need the foster care system tomorrow. Really and so when people say that Yeah, adoptive child or, or fostering a child, I always like to say you know what you're doing probably the most important work to stop sex trafficking in America. Because it's a loving home, that they can bring that child in and care for that child in a way that they need to be cared for. So they're not so at risk to be victimized in this way. Seth Price 34:10 Yeah, I want to ask a pastoral question. And so if I, if I go back to my church and I say, here's what we're talking about, we need to spend months, because it's it's a it's a topic that matters. If the church is called to do anything, it is to bring shalom to the world like to move towards the kingdom of God. And sex trafficking of minors or sex trafficking period is definitely not that it's it's the opposite of that. How does the church not break apart because churches are really good about arguing, and they're really good about making committees and really good about making a plan, and not often really good about doing anything about it. And so how would a pastor or church go about doing that, besides doing some form of false like, how do you prepare a church to not just lose its members? I can see the Pastor in the back going, Yeah, we should talk about that on a Sunday night that's attended by 10% of the people that come to church because I'm, I got a light bill. I got I got food I need to buy, like, how how would you approach that?

Carrie 35:15

Well, actually, so when we actually produced surrender the secret there was already a tool that was in place for the church. So we just showed that, you know, through media, so with blind eyes open, there wasn't really a tool. So right now our board is actually making a Bible curriculum that's going to shadow the film after it's released. It'll be seven hours that can be done during Sunday school time. Our hope is that it's going to help the pastors and the leadership and anyone who's wanting to get engaged, actually, and the best way I can describe this is like if you're on an airplane, You need to oxygen, you put it on yourself, and then you can turn and put it on your child. So we're actually producing right now this curriculum that's going to in somewhat help deal with different parts, we're breaking down the film, it's going to deal with broken families, it's going to deal with, you know, vulnerability, really around human trafficking. But when we look at it as a whole, it's just the broken family. It's addiction. And then it's kind of getting into that transformation piece, and then actually helping the church engage with those who want to get involved, and what that looks like sort of some churches, it may just be organized in your intercessory prayer group, and other churches, it may be, well, it's going to help them we're gonna have resources through their sections that may help them hey, there's a couple ministries here in our hometown that we can actually help support because they are out feeding and going going in, and they're dealing with poverty because it runs together. And they're helping find those kids that are trapped in those low income hotels. And so we're kind of trying to work on that plan right now because we realize this is going to open up, you know, different pieces that I think not one church can really handle. But, yeah, that particular church handles just maybe in their area what they can. Yeah. And so, um, that was my

Seth Price 37:31

question. Like, when I finished watching, I'm like, Okay, so now what? You know, I was like, okay,

Geoffrey 37:39

okay. Yes, that's why I asked. Yeah. I had very few questions. I wanted to make sure that I asked but that was on the list. There's another one that want to make sure I asked. So the film focuses primarily on females. What is kind of the statistics or other any, it can't just be female. So what does it look like for males in Sex Trafficking here in the United States is when we, when we look at girls versus boys, for example, one DOJ funded study that we cite comp commonly. You remember when I said there's about 100,000 plus kids that are trafficked in America for sex, X percent of those are boys. And so that's a statistic that's also shocking to people. Because when most people think about sex trafficking, they are not thinking about boys. They're not thinking about men. Yeah. And so that is a whole nother dynamic. We do actually address that in the film as well that boys are trafficked to Yeah, but the six survivors that are featured in the film are all

Seth Price 38:42

want to talk about two more things before our time and one is and I think Brooke is the one that brings it up the emotional bondage to the captor can either of you kind of speak to what that looks like? And then for me, it had a big correlation to the concept of great rooming. And as I was talking about this with friends, and as I began talking about it with my wife, you know, I have two beautiful girls and many people have two beautiful girls or one beautiful or beautiful boys doesn't matter beautiful children. I don't actually understand what I need to be looking for. And so how does how does a captor that is lowered my child into this if if someone listening I mean those statistics are huge. So somebody listening knows somebody that this is happening to statistically that the numbers of the show are big enough that that is 100% likely, how does that emotional bondage kind of what can you look for? And then kind of how does that relate to the grooming?

Geoffrey 39:42

Well, I'll start and then you can even add in also. So the number one way that kids are trapped into sex trafficking in America is through what we call a Romeo pimp or a Romeo trafficker. And so these are guys who are extremely skilled at how to identify Young kids that are very, very vulnerable. Unfortunately, you can actually go on to Amazon today. And you can buy a book on how to become a violent sex trafficker. And it's actually prime. So they'll deliver it to you on Sunday, they'll deliver in a couple days. So, I mean, you think about the implications of that, and what that really shows about our society, that you can buy a book on how to do this. And so the guys that are doing this, mostly men, I mean, there are women as well, but the ones that are doing this, especially the Romeos, they're incredibly skilled at first of all where to go so they know where to go. They go to the shopping mall, they go to the bus station, they go to places where runaway kids are, they also go mainly also to social media. And so what they're looking for are young girls that are extremely low self esteem, very vulnerable. So they've grown up in a home where they haven't had unconditional love from the parents. Maybe they don't have a dad that's around a split family. They just haven't felt loved At home and so that young kid is looking for love elsewhere. And so these traffickers know what to look for. They're looking for the downtrodden, the the one that's kind of fallen behind the group, and they engage with that young child and basically start to show her attention. And in some ways, the first attention she's ever received like that before. And even though he's older man, he's engaging with her this this, you know, young teenager, but starting to show her this affection, maybe buying her gifts, etc. And then at a certain point begins to basically say that you know what, I'm your boyfriend, I love you. Well, that she's never heard that before either. So she falls madly in love with this guy. And so there's a grooming you mentioned, the word grooming, there's a grooming period, that it takes place, maybe six to nine months. And over that period of time, she ends up to the point where she'll do anything for him. And at a certain point in time, he'll flip a switch and basically so you work for me now. And at that point, it's kind of past the point of no return. It's what they call a stop. coma syndrome, or a trauma bond that exists where even though she's being victimized, unbelievably, she's still in love with this guy and will do anything for him so that the scenario we just painted is the most common scenario of how girls are lowered into the sex trafficking industry inside the United States.

Seth Price 42:21

How do I know when that's happening? Like if I'm listening, and I have a 16 year old 1415 year old daughter or son, like what am I looking for? To go? Okay, this is different. Like we need to like something has changed here. Because if you wait till March seven, I don't you know, you like rioted at week one? That's right,

Geoffrey 42:41

one, seven. Right. And you know, it's signs that parents can look for, but it's also signs that teachers can look for, or youth pastors can like pastors and churches, they can look for certain signs. And so some of those signs are a child who all of a sudden has a cell phone that didn't have a cell phone Before and if you're a parent, you don't know where that kid got the cell phone, what is that or they're showing up with jewelry, they're showing up with gifts and you don't know where they're getting them or truancy at school. So they're going to school, but then you're receiving truancy reports that you know what they're not they're not staying at school, they're going somewhere else, are children whose grades have been really, really good, really positive. And immediately all of a sudden drop off the map, something's going on. They're not always sex trafficking, but there's something going on there, or children that are extraordinarily tired during the day because they're, they're out all night. So these are some of the common signs and one thing I'd say to parents is just understand the dangers of social media. That is where most of these kids are lowered. And so it's understanding what social media platforms your kids are on and who they're talking to.

Seth Price 43:52

This may not be a fair question, but I do want to make it my last one. How has going through both of these topics, but specifically, this one has been Going through this change the way that you parent, neither one of you

Carrie 44:04

are perfect parents.

Geoffrey 44:06

Absolutely, absolutely.

Carrie 44:12

Um, I just started doing Facebook really about three months ago because I really haven't felt led to, to, to put my children on there. And I realized, like, I'm kind of losing connection with, with friends and my own family. So I've kind of gotten past all that. But um, I mean, we've had a lot of conversations with our kids. I mean, we mean they, I mean, our middle son is playing these games now. And these people come on and they talk. And one of the guys actually started asking some questions and he knew, like, I think for us, because we've been so involved in this and we've had so many conversations and our home and they've been exposed to almost every conversation and We're probably my kids are probably the kids that some parents don't want their kids are hanging around, but at least they're in. But, you know, he he reported a guy because he asked where your mom was. He thought that was inappropriate. Ask a What did he ask? He said, Where are you? Yeah, he asked where he was and then he asked what your mom's name was. So he reported him there's I guess there's a hotline with the these games they play, you can report like suspicious people. And so I was really surprised because he's a love it. I'm surprised he knew to do that. I was really glad that he's paying attention to that. Um, we don't let our kids go to the bathroom by themselves. They always have to have a buddy like we don't let our kids go into the restrooms by themselves. I feel like we keep a pretty close eye on them, but I have kind of moved out. I don't want them to be scared and live and so kind of at this point where, like, where, you know, I haven't given me any reason not to trust them. But we we do monitor, we have protections on all their devices. Every now and then my husband takes my older son's phone, and, you know, he checks to see what conversations are taking place. So we've got all the parental guards. And I think we just honestly, we really talk about it a lot. I mean, we inform them, you know, when we go to the mall, I mean, we just sometimes if someone looks not right, I might say like, hey, I want you to stay kind of close by me. I'm not really sure about that person. And they know what that means. Because we talk about it.

Geoffrey 46:44

Yeah. Yeah, but one thing I'd say is we're very open with them. And because when we talk about this publicly, a lot of times parents will come up and say, you know, is what you're gonna say appropriate for my child? And my answer has always been if your child is old enough Understand what we're talking about, your kid needs to understand it. And if they're too young and it just goes over their head, then it's not going to affect them anyway. But I mean, young kids, when they start to be able to understand this topic really do need to be educated on this because that's when they're at that Prime age of vulnerability. And I'll tell you, we do have like, almost like a titanium bubble around our house when it comes to the technology. But I was preparing for talking at a convention one time and I was doing some more research on the pornography topic. And I read something and it stopped me in my tracks. Because what it said is you can have the tightest restrictions in your own home on all your kids tablets and their phones and everything. And you think it's all button solid. But all it takes is one friend. And right then it was like oh my goodness, what I'd never thought about that. Yeah. And that night, a couple of years ago, I talked to our oldest son, and I just said to him, Hey, and we started talking a little bit. And I said, Well, what about your friends, and he actually had an instance where one of the Friends tried to show him something that was very inappropriate on cell phone. But I do believe that he was telling me the truth when he said, Dad, I didn't look. Yeah. And that's because we've been able to share with them. The reality of what happens that yeah, it might even be desirable, but not to look at this stuff because it's a trap. And so I think probably the biggest way like Carrie says is just open lines of communication and being completely open with them about the truth of what's happening.

Seth Price 48:26

Yeah, more information is if you can understand the information, it's not a bad thing to have it gives you power. It gives the person that is possibly getting taken advantage of power, and the scenario there so we'll good I think that's a good spot to leave. Thank you for taking the time to create the documentary. I do think it as well as a handful of other topics are the topics that matter for for my kids, like I like it matters. It matters for the country. It matters for my kids, that master my neighbors, kids. It's matters and when the church refuses to engage in things that matter, I genuinely think the world is a much worse off place. So thank you for helping to push that envelope a bit. And I really do hope that churches will come alongside as well as things that are not in the church as well and come alongside and, and try to help move the needle a bit. But, but thank you so much for coming on to both of you. I really appreciate it.

Geoffrey 49:22

Well, sir, thank you very much. Really appreciate you taking the time to address this topic. It's not an easy one. No, but

Seth Price 49:27

no, I don't get nervous for a lot of conversations, but I was nervous for this one. Yeah, I'm happy to get in the weeds on theology and hermeneutics, but this one it just it just hits close to home like i've you know, just hits close to home, so well thank Unknown Speaker 49:56 so the numbers are staggering

Seth Outro 49:57

27 million in slavery, in bondage from this, 27 million people with an average age of those people being 11 sold into sex trafficking, for whatever the reason is, it's just not acceptable. Now I really struggled to watch the documentary. Yeah, it took me days to get through it. And the stories in it and we briefly touched on it in the episode I highly recommend, if this is something that you feel like you should engage with, do so. You can find a bit more about the show over at ships of Tarshish which that website is ships. TV sh IP s tv.org. Thank you again for the salt of the sound for their music using this episode. I pray that each of you has a fantastic week. Be blessed