Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Intro

September's done basically, how are you doing? Thank you for downloading the show. If you don't know what this is or who I am. My name is Seth, this is the Can I Say This at Church podcast. A podcast dedicated to having authentic and genuine conversations about religion, faith, life and anything else that intersects with those?

So last week in the episode with Henri Nouwen, I had said, you know, in a few weeks, I'm going to try to do a solo episode, I gave a call for you to send in just thoughts, feedback, questions about the show about faith about life about me about you about whether or not the Dallas Cowboys will have a winning season (fingers crossed…we are right now). But please do that please shoot me an email at CanIsaythisatchurch@gmail.com? Use the hashtag, #canIsaythisatchurch, just wherever you want to direct those to me, let me see those, I would love to incorporate those into what is arguably one of the most; so that I'm probably most nervous about, as want to be upfront about that.

Remember to rate and review the show, and a very special thanks to every single patron of the show. And if you're not counted among them, please do so they make sure that the show can be a show, like I say this and immediate every time. This show has no ads. And that's on purpose. So if you thought about supporting the show in any way, click the buttons you find the links everywhere. It's It's not hard to try it down your show notes or website wherever you want to go. And consider supporting the show for as little or as much as you can for as long or as short of a time period as you can. Because I know people's lives change. And I would love to greet you there and tell you Thank you. today's conversation is with one of the patrons supporters. So Matt Tipton is a musician. He's a pastor. He's an artist. He's a father. He's a husband, he's a human. He's from Texas, which gives him at least 20% more street cred. And that's not fair. If you're not from Texas, and I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. But Matt, his music just touches me and I've used his music in a few episodes in the past. He's been gracious enough to share those and and it is a privilege to bring him onto the show to talk a bit about his story. And so here we go. Part Three on Patreon conversations with Matt Tipton…

Matt (off mic)

as a hobby, but also as his way too. I'm giving you way too much.

Seth

Yeah, yeah. Well, so it’s fun as I'm already recording this. So it's…

Matt (in laughter)

No, no, no!!!! That’s way too much

Seth

Well, let's make it go.

Matt Tipton, thank you for being a supporter of the show. Welcome to the show, man. I'm excited to talk to you. I'm a very big fan of your music. You were one of the first people that said,

“Yeah, you can use the music on the show”.

And, so yeah, I emailed a bunch of people. And although yours wasn't the first episode that music was in, you were one of the first people that that said, “Yeah.”

Matt

Wow, really?

Seth

Yeah, I recorded about gosh, about that 12 before I released anything, because I needed to make sure I gave myself a stop-gap since I'm the only person that is doing most of the work. So I needed to give myself runway, if that makes sense.

Matt

Yes,

Seth

The music that I mixed in with the interview with Alexander Shaia, you were the first person that said yes. So thank you for your generosity, and welcome to the show man excited to have you

Matt

Anytime. Anytime. Absolutely.

Seth

So tell me about you. What is it that makes Matt…Matt and that's…I ask the same question every single time because that's literally one of my favorite questions.

Matt

Well, that's interesting, I think it's like, has a lot to do with the past. I think it has a lot to do with, who and where I came from, how I was brought up, you can have my family life growing up, and maybe some disappointments my past, but in what I strive to be today. It's kind of weird that you say that, you know, like, what makes Matt “Matt”, um, I'm in a weird season of life; and you might understand that. But being a man, you kind of go through different phases, being someone who turns 18, you're, you're told you're this adult, you know, that you need to be, you know, on the road to figure things out for yourself, you know, what do you want to do with your career? What do you want to do with your education, whatnot? How are you going to support yourself, and it's more about yourself. And so growing up, you know, that's just the mentality that I had, and, you know, as a, as a young man, you know, and then getting to be this young man, growing through my 20s, growing up, starting in ministry, going through disappointments in my family, trying to raise a family trying to support my wife and my family, through, you know, my career and what I'm doing in ministry, there's just a different perspective. And so, it's really weird, because like, I'm at a whole different phase of life being 37. of going, I'm not that young man. I know, that sounds weird. Somebody's older listeners, you know, but I'm not that young man in my teens, or my early 20s, or even my early 30s anymore, it's like a weird lens to look through to go, who is bad? You know, what makes Matt; Matt?

Well, I'm in a different place. I'm going and kind of relearning that;

I'm re-learning what it is like to be through the failures and, and everything of, of who I am. And as my kids get older, and it's like, wow, I kind of had that idea. But I'm constantly in a state of learning, I should say.

I grew up, I grew up fatherless. Um, I didn't know my dad. And, you know, a lot of listeners probably could probably understand, you know, in some way. With that, you know, but I never knew my real father. I had the chance to kind of meet him when I was older in life. But I found out that he died soon before I got the chance to actually meet him in person.

So my whole life, I kind of dealt with his father issue of not knowing who and what a father was like in my life. And so that really kind of shaped who I was, and how I thought, and a lot of ways, I know I'm sorry, I'm probably going a little bit further than I should be.

Seth

you're fine, you're fine.

Matt

But when it comes to faith, my faith is a lot of what makes me who I am. But a lot of it stems from not having a father, and really coming to trust who God is, as the Father, through not having the father. Does that make sense?

Seth

It does

Matt

So it continues on through this manhood of now being 37 becoming kind of that early, young, older man. So I'm not like a young man anymore. But I'm kind of like, the I'm like the young man of the older man. So I'm like the kind of the, at the beginning stages of becoming an older man. I have a different lens of life as what a man should be. And so my perspective as far as like, everything is changing constantly. And so what makes Matt Matt is, is always changing. And it's definitely in a season where I feel like it's a different lens, and I'm learning how to see through that lens, if that makes sense.

Seth

Yeah, well,

A 30,

Or I'm sorry, I'm tired of saying, Hey, I'm gonna edit that I whatever, doesn't matter. I say that a lot.

Matt

(laughter!! ) keep it in! Keep it in!

Seth

1, there we go, we just changed the prefix.

37 is a fantastic age, because I am also 37 I've never thought about myself being a young-old man. But I do, I'm often reminded of I don't know, who said it, maybe one of my grandparents maybe was my dad. And, you know, old is, like, 20 years from now. And I can remember being 17 and being like, “Wow, man, 37, you know, 35, whatever, that's old”.

And now that I'm 37, I'm like, 50 is definitely not old, definitely not old.

So I can relate to that a lot. What is that old lens? So you talk about you got a new lens in that you've been wrestling with some things. So if you're willing, I'd like to hear a bit about that, like, what is the old lens? And then how is that shifting or fracturing into a new lens for I guess, this year, this season, or whatever it is,

Matt

I think it's more of like, you're in your early stage of manhood. You're more independent, you know, you're really trying to focus on taking care of yourself and making a name for yourself, a career for yourself, supporting yourself, you know? I know this is weird, but I mean, this is like the kind of pre-millennial age; like I'm one of the first millennials I'm the early millennial. You know, I still was taught dude, when you're 18, you're out of the house, bro. Like you know, it's time to go and get out of the nest and start supporting yourself.

And so that was the big deal for me. So there was always this mentality of like, what is your career going to look like? What are you going to do, you know, to support yourself, and then I got married at 22 and immediately was, I wouldn't say bribed. But, you know, God led me to this, this opportunity to help start a church and the north, the Pacific Northwest. And so just north of Seattle, I hope I got the opportunity to start a church with a friend at 22 in one of the most unreachable areas of the United States and no ministry, no ministry training, no seminary degree, nothing. All I was out to be was this producer, I love being in the studio. That's what I went to school for. That's what I was trained at was working in the studio was producing others was, you know, being an audio engineer. And so I was geared towards that. But God led me to help start this church without the thought of actually pestering, but just going to help.

And as my wife and I, when we got married, three weeks after we got married, we were after a honeymoon, we actually moved to the Pacific Northwest, and to help start this church with a friend and just felt led, it was adventurous, it was, you know, exciting, we were 22 we didn't have kids or anything like that.

So it's still something that have this mentality of like, you know, I'm here to, like, make a name for myself, like I want to be known for being this faithful person who's just jumping out on a limb, like, trusting God and just doing whatever he's called me to do. And God used that in a big way to bless me, but also to kind of mold be like, so he was blessing me for being faithful. But he was also like, was shaping me and disciplining me out of kind of the sheer ignorance that I had this like confidence that I had, but also, I don't know how to explain it, ignorance, immaturity.

Seth 11:58

Yeah. How long did you How long? Did you pastor there or did you just produce there? Like, were you preaching? Were you singing? What were you doing?

Matt

Well my youth pastor was going to be the actual church planter. So he was going to be the senior pastor and he wanted me to come along and asked me to pray about it. And as a young man, I thought it was of interest. I thought, you know, I’d talk to my soon to be to be wife, and see what she thought about it.

We both agreed and felt called and so my job was going to be an intern at Mackie. And, and so this was in the Pacific Northwest, and so my job is not to be actually full time or to be employed by the church. But what happened was on my way up to the Pacific Northwest to Seattle, after our honeymoon, we drove up, we spent four days traveling in a car, taking whatever we had, which is barely anything, we didn't really have, you know, lot, you know, beds or anything like that we had, maybe a dresser and a table and a TV and some clothes.

And it was pretty embarrassing. And we are going to move into this apartment complex that was 659 square feet. And on our way up there, my wife was planning to be an accountant. For one of the big four, there was Ernst and Young that was in Seattle. So she was going to be starting at Ernst and Young in Seattle. So that was her occupation. But my occupation was, I was planning to just go and be an audio engineer to go and produce to kind of start my career in Seattle. But on the way there, the guy who was starting the church called me and said, “Hey, Matt, we're raising a lot of money. And I would love for you to come on full time on staff to be our music production guy”. And so I thought, “um, can I call you back?”

You know, so. So hours later called him back, and I was like, that sounds really cool. I don't really know what you're wanting from me. And he's like, well, we can talk about details when you get here, and so got to Seattle to talk to this individual.

His name's Chris, amazing guy, talked to Chris and said, “Hey, okay. I'm willing to be a part of the team full time. He says, great. You know what, we'll talk about it more when we get here. And it was funny, because in my heart, I had no intention of ever, being a pastor, ever being on on staff at a church never being a pastor, I just had no heart for it. I didn't know what that was like, I had never been to seminary and never been to anything.

And yet, I'm moving across the country. What I thought was just this adventurous ride, but yet God was calling me to be a pastor. And when I started that job, I was basically put in a position where I was to build teams and to become this leader, and to help form this church that didn't exist out of nowhere. And being so oblivious, and kind of ignorant, which was kind of good in some ways, God led me to starting to kind of love the church and understand who the church was. I never really knew who the church was, but through this decision, you know, and faithfulness of trusting God and moving out of ignorance, God was kind of shaping my heart to have this desire and love for who the church was.

And so out of that time in the Pacific Northwest, and and becoming on staff actually became the one of the pastor's of this church and lead a team saw it grow, got to be a part of something pretty incredible, but something I never thought I would be, and that came from faithfulness, but also out of ignorance.

And God really begin to shape, you know, I guess he began to, I guess, make it real, in my heart of who he was, as father more and more, because at that time moving to the Pacific Northwest, there was still kind of a distrust towards the father figure of who God was.

But he had taken care of me of him like this, you know, disciplining me, but also leading me into this position of understanding who the church was, man, I can't tell you it was incredible to like, bring me closer to this understanding of God the Father.

And so what was missing in my life became even more real by taking this chance.

Seth 16:30 And then so that sent you from there…so that, did that whet your appetite to want to get into ministry? And is that because you're in Houston now? Right? At least if Google is correct, you're in Houston.

Matt

Yeah, Yeah,

Seth

Google's always correct. So how did how do you get to Texas? Like, are you from Texas? Did you go back, Or?

Yes, where we came from? We came from a church where I used to help out the youth ministry and the youth minister of that church where I served, felt led to start a church somewhere, asked me to be a part of that team. And through that team, we decided the Pacific Northwest.

So yeah, being in the Pacific Northwest, I was actually there in Seattle for about six and a half years before the Lord was like, it's time to go. And then when I was kind of feeling called away, there was an opportunity in Houston, back at the church, I served that for being on staff as as a worship pastor. And so it was really unique.

I mean, to see how all of this played out that here's the church I came from, you know, I'm and then I moved to Seattle, started church. And then years later, feeling led away, only to, you know, return back to Houston to the actual church that I came from. Yeah. And serving there ever since.

Seth 17:51

Yeah. So curious, you've talked about what the church looked like, or what the church needed to be. And I feel like you're talking about that church in the Pacific Northwest. But I'd like to break that open bigger. And so as a pastor, as someone of similar age as me, you'll read, or you'll hear argued, the church's role should be this, or the mission of the church should be this but curious, what do you think the church should actually be busy doing on days that aren't Sunday? Like, what should we be doing?

Matt

Honestly, dude, I think it's interacting with people in in circumstances that break our heart. I think it's trying to fix fix brokenness, regardless of what it is, whether it's people or whether it's circumstances. I think, going in to restore situations is, I think, probably the key element.

I think the thing that makes me fulfilled, and I think what makes the church fulfilled, rather than just living individual lives, rather than just focusing just on our family, which, yes, we should, I think, like, yeah, go in and try to restore our family itself. But I really feel like in the broad sense of our communities, in our world, and to look for broken circumstances, and to look for broken people and to just have compassion and to love them in reality, and to build community from that.

And so I don't know that that really is the it's really funny, because it's like, the one thing that gets me charged is not necessarily making music. But it's seeing brokenness, not fixed, don't want to say fix, but I guess seeing people and meeting people in their brokenness.

Seth

So a question I haven't asked anybody in a while because I haven't spoken anybody from Texas in a while. But you know, I've talked I've asked, I've asked Sean Palmer I've asked Derek Webb, I mean, Richard back a couple of people. So you get to choose now. And so I'm going to break I'm going to break the theological theme for a moment, you've got to do either, you know, Whataburger or, In and Out Burger. Which one is it? Because this matters, this could be heretical.

Matt

Good question. It's Whataburger dude. Are you kidding me?

Seth

Yeah. I saw the news the other day that they were being bought by someone else. And I was like, Oh, no, I'm like, Oh, nevermind. This is just venture capital. It's gonna be fine. They're still making burgers, it’s going to be ok

Matt

You're talking about Chicago?

Seth 20:17

Yeah, I think it's just some rich person with some money, bailing them out.

Your music, I've really enjoyed it over these past couple years, like, especially Ephesians, I don't know why I come back to that often. And there's a track where you stop playing, and you just hear like a preacher, come on, just “worship God”, and I forget what track it is. But it's one of my favorite tracks.

Even my kids, like when we're driving, will turn it up. And then they all just yell it with there; but I'm curious, you know, as a musician, as someone, I also play music, I'm not extremely good at it, but I enjoy doing it. When I sing, and when I write, or when I play someone else's music, it changes the way that I view God

Matt

wow

Seth

in a similar way to how like having kids has changed the way that I see God.

And you alluded to that a bit about, you know, with God, as father, when you're writing music, or when you're worshiping with music, how does that break open pieces of God that possibly weren't there prior? Or how has it in the past?

Matt

That's a really good question. I think music is definitely extremely, I guess, useful for me as, as a person of faith and somebody who's able to just try in a sense, I guess, communicate what's going on internally. It's a chance for me to Yeah, I guess to it's a good question.

I guess with like, kind of Ephesians , you know, fusions was big, big in my heart Even before I recorded that album, for instance. Because what inspired me was years before that, I had memorized Ephesians, chapters one, two, and three, and held on to that, and that ministered to me in in so many ways, because I would hear sermons, I would hear conversations, I would hear theological debates and conversations based on faith. And it always come back to these chapters that I had memorized. And it was always like, kind of, I would start just, quoting Scripture, you know, based on conversations, so those those chapters meant a lot to me. Ephesians was huge, you know, in the, I guess, developing my faith and who God was, and just becoming a, I guess, a better theologian, you know, better in my understanding of who God was. And so, later on, when I was at Houston, Northwest, back in Houston, our pastor Dr. Ezner, he did a series and a fusions, and that was something that that really gripped me, and really challenged me but strengthened me in so many ways. And I felt compelled to share that share where I was, personally my faith walk and through writing about the the chapters in Ephesians, and through that, it was not only a goal to encourage others, but it was also in a goal to encourage myself, you know, to strengthen myself. And so, in so many ways, I think God use that to bless others, but also just to bless my heart and help me understand who he was through this creation of singing about him and, and writing about him based on the book.

Seth

Ephesians is, it's a great album, Blessed King also has become, I think that's the name of the album that might just be the name of the song. Is that the name of the album?

Matt

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Seth

And it's a great cover. Either way, I'm a little jealous of the cover. I like simple, bold, like, it's just, it's easy to recognize anyway, that's a digression. So you had talked about at the very beginning, possibly before I told you, we were recording that, you know, some things in your faith had possibly changed or shifted. And so I'm curious what some of those are, and kind of where you're at now? Like, if there's something that you know, the 18 year old version of Matt was like, absolutely, this is the gospel truth. What are those things now that you're like, “Yeah, man, I really missed the boat. It was unloving. And maybe I was right. But I'm pretty sure I was wrong”, because I have a lot of those.

Matt

You’re absolutely right. So like, I think just being a student, in ministry, I think you're very vulnerable to the message and the narrative of Jesus, and, you know, of what happened on the cross, and what led to the cross, and understanding who God was. Just this whole idea of this evangelist like, you know, so are you evangelistic, evangelical, sorry, can’t say the word right. This idea of just understanding who God is, you know, based on, you know, the narrative of Jesus and the birth and virgin birth up to the cross, and, and, and then the resurrection and the ascension, and then how we are to share that, Howard share this, this gospel truth to people, in a sense that we know all the answers, you know, and that we know, life secrets to everything, of why people are depressed, why people are addicted, why people are broken.

It's all because of this, you know, and here's the one way to fix it. And it's just like, I think when you're young, you're very vulnerable, and really receptive to that. But also, it's easy to grasp on to that and become kind of judgmental, in a lot of ways into think that way to have that, that way of thinking of like, even people in your family members in your family, people in society, people in politics and everything. Like this is what Jesus would have thought, here's what, here's what we should think, here's the right way of thinking. And if you think differently than you wrong, and you were going to Hell, you know, just point blank, and being young, you know, that's, that's something that you kind of grasp on to, I think out of fear and anxiety.

You want to be in the right, you know, right state of mind, you want to be in the right crowd. And so I think life helps shape for the shape a different perspective, I think of the more people, you know, the brokenness that you experience yourself, but also the more broken set you come in contact with, when reaching the broken, you know, there's a different perspective that you have, and that opens up.

And so I think, especially Blessed King, it's kind of ironic, because a lot of the songs were written when I was a kind of in a young state of mind when it comes to who the church is and evangelical mind of growing the church, but being a part of a church plant and reaching people in the Pacific Northwest, who are complacent, but also who are resistant towards faith in general. Just thinking, wow, they're so wrong, I can't believe they're doing this, you know, without even knowing them without even having a greater perspective of who these people are.

But yet, writing this music and putting out this album, is almost a way for me to become vulnerable in that sense of telling people, this is who I was, I still believe in who God is, in his essence. But when it comes to certain topics in the church, and when it comes to certain topics of faith, like those become a little bit more left handed, rather than kind of right handed issues, if that makes sense?

Seth

What do you mean, what do you mean left handed and right handed?

Matt

Left handed is more when it comes to understanding people and maybe more of their morality, when it comes to understanding issues and politics when it comes to understanding the no positions in the church where we stand?

Whether it's, you know, through feminism, or politics or Republican conservatism, or just understanding people in general, whether it was homosexuality, or, you know, just different things of the church that I was like, these are close handed issues, right?

And they're really not, you know, and just kind of becoming aware of understanding people, those people in wanting to know who they are, and having a greater perspective, rather than shutting them off, just because of their stance on something and thinking that know who they are based on? I don't know, what they stand for.

Seth 28:42

I want to follow up on that. So how do you I was asked this question the other night, you know, how do you know if the church or the faith body or this the community, because some people just don't go to church and they find community elsewhere? Like, how do you weigh that it's healthy, when, you know, the maybe the past or staff or the the lay staff, or just even the people that sit across from you, you know hold just polar opposite views? And how do you work through that as a church, so that you have space to actually still love each other without just write horrible rhetoric?

Matt 29:17

So I think one of the biggest issues is homosexuality, and especially with the southern church, I should say. So I don't know what perspective you have. But when it comes to the southern church, you know, that's, that's one of the bigger things, you know, other than you being a Democrat, it's like, Okay, wow, you being a homosexual is like, that's another…Wow, that's a huge, huge obstacle here. You know, we just, we just can't seem to cross or to fix or whatever.

And so like, I think the biggest issue is, I've seen so much hurt in that with having best friends who are homosexuals, who have just been shut out by the church. And so I would love to see more of a not only just a welcoming sense of the Church of welcoming in homosexuals or somebody who, you know, who was say, Hey, you know, I'm, I am a host homosexual, but to not have this sense of, of being on mission to save them. Does that make sense?

Okay, we appreciate you saying that you're homosexual, but we, we are going to strive, strive to try and fix you. And here those ways. We're not going to allow you to be a member, we're not gonna allow you to serve, but we're going to, we're going to try to, to meet with you and try to work on this issue that you're having. You know, and it just feels so much like a disconnect when it comes to mercy and service and understanding and compassion. And so it's hard.

Seth

I was talking with someone the other day, they actually. So you asked for, for my frame of mind. So I'm from Midland, Texas. So again, well within the Bible Belt, and then I went to Liberty and it wasn't till afterwards.

Matt

Oh I did too!

Seth

You went to Liberty? Really?

Matt

Yeah.

Seth

When were you there

Matt

Oh it was all online.

Seth

I spent way too much money. But I met my wife, you know, while I was at Liberty, so I wouldn't trade that for the world - worth every penny. And I recently paid that off last October of 2018, which is a big deal. I can talk to people named Sallie again without getting angry.

Matt and Seth

(laughter)

Yeah, for a while there couldn't do it. So that's kind of the frame of mind. But someone had asked me, you know, how can you hold because because I am entirely inclusive, like not just welcoming, like, entirely inclusive. Because I think hermeneutically we use and browbeat Scripture, the same way that people use to justify slavery, or other things. And like, there's just very few words that we hinge on in the New Testament in the old and we just get the culture. And so what I told a friend that is a pastor, he's like, I just don't understand your duties, like I can be welcoming, but they're not they just can't participate in something.

I was like, well, then you're not welcoming. Like, if you want them to participate in sacraments. And I believe marriage is one and you won't do that, then you're not welcoming. You can say you're whatever you want to say you are to make yourself feel good. But you're a liar.

He stared at me as like, I'm not mad at you. I'm just trying to be honest, you know. And I could say that because I didn't go to his church. And I go to a church that doesn't have an issue with that. I know that there's some privilege there. But I'm curious. So what is next on the horizon for Matt?

Like I saw recently, which I haven't finished list, I listen to it a few times. But I haven't finished. I like to chew on music. I saw recently you had an I think a new single come out. But what is, what is next for Matt? Like where are you going? Where are you going? Where you driving that car to?

Matt 32:54

That's a good question, you know, because honestly, I had account like I meet with a counselor just because, you know, I think it's healthy. And something that it really, it helps me in the industry in general, and helps me and my family and relationships and the way I respond to people, the way that I interact and whatever; it gives me a better perspective when it comes to life. Rather than just coping with things in the way that I think they should be dealt with, whether it's, you know, ministry, whether it's personal, whether it's my past or anything.

I need a professional perspective to help me so if anybody is listening out there, and you are, you know, resisting professional help when it comes to counseling, and you're just like, well, I can just do it on my own. I really think one of the most refreshing things is meeting with somebody professional that can give you a perspective and in what you're dealing with, regardless of what it is. Whether it's anger, whether it's anxiety, professional, ministry, frustration, family or anything, it's really good to have that outside perspective, who can tell you, “Hey, have you thought of it this way”.

And so where I'm getting at is meeting with a professional counselor. And going through a lot of things, they, they realize that I was a creative person, they realized that a way for me to become excited to become energized was to create and more specifically music. And so they said, “Well, why don't you turn your therapy, what you're going through in the music, why not talk about and be honest about your emotions and your passion and being expressive through, you know, creativity”. And that hit hit me; that was a long time ago, that was probably, I don't know, 11/12 years ago.

And from that point, I've never stopped creating. And so regardless of what it is, whether it's about my faith, whether it's about who God is, and his nature, whether it's about what I've learned through Scripture, or ministry and my love for God; or if it's just my life, it's if it's my going through my family, or my past, or struggles and being honest and open about the struggles I go through now.

Whether it's habitual struggle, struggles, or whether it's emotional struggles, or whatever it's like, music is a way for me to, it's a way for me to kind of utilize music as therapy. That makes sense. So I view music and melody as therapy in a way. And so I create a constantly create. And so if I want to be vulnerable with people, it's almost like, here's my way of being vulnerable. And showing vulnerability is creating music and releasing it to the world.

To say, I don't care what you think of me. But this is who I am. This is the real Matt, it's my music.

Seth

Your music speaks to me, like I hear a lot of… hear a lot of truth is that that's not even the best word. I hear a lot of authenticity, your honesty and your music.

Matt

I appreciate that. Yeah. So I actually sent so my wife is a cancer nurse. And so people email me sometimes about you know, what can I pray or how can I pray or whatever.

I don't even know why. Because I don't come from any position of authority. But what I send them is that “I will comfort you” song over and over. And I can't tell you how many people have emailed back. And they're like, this was the right amount of “not trite”, and wordplay like the right amount of truth, if that makes sense. Because you can really overdo it when you're trying to comfort someone.

And I don't mean that as a play on words. It's just the best word. So I want to end with this. Where would you send people to that either want to get ahold of your music, want to message you maybe and say, Hey, what are you doing, how can I hear more? Where would you send people to Matt?

Matt 37:18

I would totally send them to anything. That's, that's more of their digital platform of listening music. So if it's Spotify, or iTunes, or if it's Bandcamp, or anything where they go to support, music that they love.

I would definitely say Spotify is a big one. But if you don't have Spotify, if you're, you know, an iTunes person, you can do that. But really, anywhere. There's YouTube, there's anything. So I'm not really…I don't know how to say this, but I'm not motivated by money.

And so I'm not motivated by listens, I'm not motivated by like, wow, I need to get more downloads, or I need to have more people, you know, be followers or anything like that. I'm not motivated by that.

So money's not a big issue. So whatever you, you know, feel that I do listen to, you know, if it's YouTube, listen to YouTube, I'm on there somewhere.

I mean, Spotify, for instance, I'm not making “jack” off of that. So do you want to listen to Spotify? That's totally fine. But yeah, I think if anybody feels led to listen to music, to listen to my music, just know that that's not anything I'm motivated by. I'm motivated by somebody hearing the real me, the vulnerable me. I'm going to be honest about where I am, I'm going to wear my heart on my sleeve, whether it's about my faith, spirituality, or whether it's about my brokenness and mess ups, or whether it's about my, my distrust of fathers and who got it. And maybe it might be a struggle of, of where I am with, with my perception of who God is. But regardless of my music, it's going to be real. So I would love for people to listen to anything.

Seth

Perfect. Well, good. I will link to as many of those things that you listed, I will link to all of them in the show notes. I'm not sure. I will make I don't know how to do one of those link tree things that I've seen people do. But I will make one for you. And I will put it in the show notes. Why not? I'm sure it's free to do so really, it's just a bit of time to do it.

But either way, Matt, thank you so much for coming on. I have enjoyed the conversation. These are amongst my favorite conversations, because there's not a roadmap. And so they're the most authentic ones that I get to have. Like, I really like talking with authors and theologians. But it is often very refreshing to have a different, if that makes sense, like to have a conversation that is not thematically aimed at any overarching

Matt

Yes,

Seth

spine of a book. Not that I don't like those because I do, I love to read. So thank you again, for, for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Matt

Well, I appreciate you know, you asking me and I definitely would love any more conversations in the future. I just really appreciate you reaching out and I love what you're doing. I really do appreciate what you're doing to to have a better conversation in the church. To have a better conversation based on those who are in the church and part of the church and want to see what the church is really about to really dive into better conversations when it comes to personal faith.

So I yeah, I thank you for reaching out and love what you're doing, man, so thanks.

Seth

Appreciate it.

Outro

I love these conversations. I said it in the interview. And I meant every single word of it. These conversations with the supporters of the show and the willingness of those to share their story a bit in part in such a public way to be those conversations here or all of the ones that I have via email or social media, some of them on the phone. They are some of the most life giving conversations that I have and privileged to have them. So I want to leave you with two things. I would like to leave you with some new music from Matt and so that will get started in a second but add Matt’s website, which you'll find links to in the show notes. He's got a quote from Alfonse de Lamartine, and it says

music is the literature of the heart. It commences where speech ends

and I find that to be so true. At times when I don't have words to say there's almost always a song that I can find or music that I lean on. That helps me express something that I needed to get out. It's healthy. I look forward to having Matt back on in the future hopefully, we talked about some things after the fact that I think is a fascinating topic about the intersection of you know, music, you choose self trauma, mental health and so hopefully that will happen. So I hope you all have a great week and listen to this music.