Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Intro

Hey there, welcome back to the show. This is Seth. And you should know which show you're listening to. I mean you downloaded it. So welcome to the show. I'm glad you downloaded. I'm glad you're here, big things happening. So some great conversations upcoming for the next few weeks and then hopefully for the next few months but I think that should work itself out. Before we get started with a couple brief announcements.

I cannot thank the supporters of the show enough. Patreon supporters y'all have been such a tremendous blessing and so some of the things that I want to try to do for next year I sent this out to the Patreon supporters and if you haven't jumped into that yet, consider doing so you'll find links in the show notes or at the website for the show or a bunch of different ways.

I really want to try to do some form of a live event like a gathering of everybody where we just get together. I don't know what that looks like. And I'm beginning the early stages. And I've gotten some wise counsel from both a friend and one of the supporters of the show on Hey, make sure that we do this with intentionality. And so I think that that will happen and hopefully it will happen sometime early next year, but I'm really excited about the possibility for it and that is really because of people that support the show. So thank you and if you haven't done that yet, consider doing it. Remember to rate and review the show, recently they just continued to uptick and that helps you know as people search for what they want to hear in the podcast things, be it Podbean or Apple iTunes. It lets people know hey, other people are enjoying this and so you may too when they search for God or faith or religion or deconstruction or trauma or doubts or really anything that we talked about here on the show. And so consider doing that because it's literally What's it take like 42 seconds you can do this. Enough of that.

Oh no, not enough of that! Another brief announcement is this store for the show, I am going to try a couple of new things. So if you are a patron supporter of the show, today, most likely you will get an email with a “Hey, if you support the show on Patreon of any level, you're going to get a discount coupon code for things that are on the podcast store at the website”. And I recently added a new shirt there I've tweaked a few things and I have some ideas for a couple other things that I want to do there but that takes time. It's just me. And I only have so much of it but be patient with me there but I'm really enjoying that. It's crazy.

There's there have been mugs that have been shipped to Australia and stuff to Canada and stuff to the like it's it's insane. You people are insane. And I love every single one of you, so thank you.

Today's conversation I thought we’d do something easy maybe to have a conversation on parenting and how to do that well, in this new age that we live in, because this our generation is entirely different than the one that raised us, like, we're just different. Everything about us is different. We are more communal and less communal. At the same time, we have easier access to information. And because of that, we can use that for hate and bigotry. And so I figured we would bring on Cindy Wang Brandt, and talk about parenting like what that looks like going forward. And so I really hope that you enjoy this conversation with Cindy. She's doing some very cool things I would highly recommend. We'll talk about some things at the end of the episode, that you dive into that to the seven or eight of you that recommended Hey, you should really talk with Cindy. I heard you I reached out to her months ago just took some time. But thank you for that recommendation. And so if you're listening and you're like, Hey, I would like to know about this or can you talk with this person? The answer is probably yes. Just tell me who that is. And what piques your interest there and I will figure out how to come at it at the most honest and transparent way that I can so here we go. conversation about parenting because it matters.

Seth

Cindy Wang Brant, welcome to the show. And for those that heard all the stuff prior, you'll realize why you're on the show. But thank you for coming onto the show. Also, most people when I email them are not as succinct as you and I can't tell you how nice it is to not have to go back and forth with 27 different emails to nail down the date. And so I appreciate your brevity and your punctuality which, for those that know me well will know why that matters. But thank you so much because I struggle with calendaring things. So you made it easy and I appreciate that but Welcome to the show.

Cindy

Yeah, well um yeah, I don't really like long rambling emails either so I appreciate your succinct emails that's, that's the strangest thing I've been complimented on but I like it.

Seth

I get yelled at at work because I only type something in the subject line and it's one sentence and there is nothing in the body. But effectively I don't even want you to have an excuse to not know what I said in the email.

Cindy

I wonder if… I worked for a comp like a business company before and I business emails tend to be very just bullet points. I think in like writer communities is much different because we're writers we love words. And I think maybe I have some of that past experiencea that influences things. It was like to waste people's time either.

Seth

It was well definitely not a waste of time, but I it's so much easier. So anyway, that is all beside the point. Welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you here. You're doing big things and from what I understand, based on a moment ago, it's in the morning for you so for those listening where exactly are you?

Cindy

I am in Taiwan. So yes I am exactly 12 hours from eastern time before daylight savings kicks in and then it's like 13 hours which to me makes all the difference 12 and 13 I think the math is a lot easier if it’s just 12 hours

Seth

13 which way forward backwards?

Cindy

Yeah, so it's Friday here already.

Seth

Well, happy almost weekend. So here we go. So for those that are unfamiliar with you, tell us a bit about you. You know, what makes me tick specifically religiously, but overall just kind of how are you you like what are those things in life that you know when I think back? This is why I am what I am today. Yeah. So specifically religiously?

Cindy

I grew up conservative evangelical, and I have since deconstructed which is a term I know a lot of people use, but not everyone loves it. But that's the process. I would say my 30s, I'm 41 now. So it's been a long journey. So I now am more of an Ex-Vangelcial. For the past few years, I published a book called parenting forward and I've been kind of moderating a Facebook group called raising children unfundamentalist and the spirit of my work is, I feel like it's kind of the next step in my deconstruction is figuring out how to parent the next generation and not just parent but teachers and educators and Sunday school ministers. How do we shepherd the next generation of kids and values that matter to us? How to shed the toxicity that a lot of us have wrestled with? So that's the work that I do right now; so I'm a writer, podcaster, speaker. And but yeah, most of my work is with this niche of parenting and progressive faith.

Seth

So how has that been? Because that was like, so 10 years ago, and you and then I don't know when you started deconstructing. But let's say 10 years ago, because why not?

Cindy

Yeah

Seth

Is that what you thought you would be doing now? Like, did you like, how did it How did you? How did you not set segues, not the word How did you migrate? That's a better word, migrate to that lane.

Cindy

I think because of my own life experience, I started to I think part of becoming a writer was part of my deconstruction because you know what, I don't I don't know if you grew up conservative evangelical, but in this fundamentalist mindset, we were not encouraged to really pursue our passions and interests it was all about God how we can serve God best and, and yeah, there were like, you these little quizzes on your spiritual gifts and stuff. But as a whole, like, part of deconstructing for me was very much recovering my gifts and my calling and so that was becoming a writer was part of that but when I started writing, you know, when you start writing you, it takes a while to discover your voice. So I was writing different things just to test things out and, and eventually I landed on writing about faith. I think because it was just the most important thing to me, was the truest part of my experience. And so I started writing faith and then I you know, kind of in the in the footsteps of like Rachel Held Evans and Sarah Bessy and, and all these bloggers who were walking this path of evolving faith, and then I was raising kids. I been raised the evangelical I got married young and had kids young and so my kids were quickly growing up as I was going through this process of deconstructing.

So I realized that there was this clash intention of, well then how do I raise my kids when I'm going through all this anger and anxiety and not one wanting to pass on kind of my spiritual trauma and giving them values to live by or a faith or lack thereof? And I don't have any answers. But like so many other writers, I think we write as we learn, right? So I wanted to learn I wanted to gather a community of people who felt the same way so that we could pull our resources and our ideas and say, Well, how do we do this? You know, I have this problem. How do we deal with this? So that's how I landed on it. And then it turned into started as a blog series back when people did blog series and turned into a book and the book and the Facebook group and, and now I'm running a conference.

Seth

So yeah, I saw that. So that that looks that looks fun that Well, I I say fun. It would drive me insane. Like I, I struggle if I don't have control of all I think is we've I think if we've we've found out if I don't have control the pieces that's just I'm going to see in a self psychoanalyze there. So real question, I thought we'd start with an easy question about parenting. So A: I am a kid and many I am a kid, I have kids, and many that have listened to the show since the beginning. What broke open my faith into a deconstruction, will use the same term there, was having kids because there are parts of me that I see in them that I don't always see in me. And I find I often see healthy and unhealthy parts of both myself. And in the way that I see God changes as I watch my kids grow, if that makes sense.

Cindy

Yeah. Very common story.

Seth

Yeah, um, well, that's good, I guess. Well, I hope. I hope it's a good story.

Anyway, so what I thought I'd start with an easy question, what is what should our job be as parents?

Cindy

I think growing up in an authoritarian system, or at least authoritarian religion, one of the most damaging things was the way it wrested control out of children, I think the most important thing we can do is offer our children autonomy. So I think the job of us as parents, is to figure out how we can give our children as much of their autonomy as we can, even as we are responsible for taking care of them. And so that I think is our most important job, how do we kind of guard our children's time? And I think a lot of times we say giving our children autonomy, it seems like…”Oh, so we just kind of let them do whatever they want”. But it's also understanding that there are forces in this world and then the system who seek to undermine their autonomy, and protecting them from that as well.

So I think about like the market fundamentalism is real, you know, all those ads, all these messages, trying to tell our kids to buy, buy, buy to the status that's kind of robbing them of their autonomy. There's, it's a billion dollar industry to, you know, create messaging that manipulates our children's brains. I think about messaging that tells our girls that they have to be a certain size or that they have to be small, that they have to be quiet. That's also something that robs our girls have their autonomy. And so I think our job as parents is to figure out what are the things that take away their their freedom, and offer it to them so that they could kind of cultivate their true-selves in the environment of our families.

Seth

I wanted to touch on a few things there. So when I hear autonomy, what I think of is, do your own thing and don't hurt anybody. Don't hurt yourself and don't hurt anyone else. And so when you say autonomy, what do you mean? Like, what does that look like on a Tuesday or on a Friday like… so my son's 10. So what does an autonomy? What does autonomy mean for a 10 year old?

Cindy

Yeah, no, I think for a 10 year old, it looks like first for them to develop what they like and what they don't like. The way that what they choose to do with their free time, what they choose to eat, what they choose to wear, those are the things that develop the sense that they can trust themselves and then they can discover who they are without intervention from, you know, outside influences. And if you want to dig a little deeper into like, you know, gender identity and all these things know we're discovering how harmful it is for let's say trans kids to be told they're certain gender when they feel differently inside.

So those those are the things but also I think, for a 10 year old autonomy means, how do they get to be a creative, create creatively express who they are in this world? Because I believe we're all creatives, just by being—just by existing, were having some sort of impact in this world. And so how does a 10 year old present themselves? Do they have access to ways that they can be who they are, project who they are? So, you know, for some people, it might be, whatever YouTube channel lots of kids are doing that or be you know, participating in the community theater or playing a sport, whatever it is, do they have access to those things to live out who they are.

Seth

I want to I want to stay on the community and autonomy. So if I agree, and I wrestle with this often because I as working as a banker, I know that I perpetuate this society of “hoard wealth”, more like it's always “How can I help you? Cindy, how can I make sure that you're set up? Well, when you're 60, 50, 80, 90 127, however old, which there's an inherent selfishness with that, and so if I'm trying to, I mean, I just literally talked about this with my daughter before bedtime, who's literally right above us. I'm all above me. She's not above you, anyway, of you know, you have too many things and she's constantly asking for so many more things. And some of that is her friends. We don't have cable so we pretty much watch Netflix like we we don't see any ads for anything.

Cindy

Yeah,

Seth

but there's something there. And just the way that at least, I don't know how Taiwan is, is Taiwan similar in that sense in the way that Americans…

Cindy

Yeah…capitalism is kind of everywhere. Yeah.

Seth 18:03

How do we model as parents that what we have is enough? Does that make because I feel oftentimes, you know, my wife and I are very similar, you know, in similar in making the same mistakes of this is a good sale. I can't afford not to buy that, like,

Cindy

yeah,

Seth

how do you effectively model? What is enough? Because the fear is it five years from now, man eight years from now, you know, she starts driving and I built a bubble around her and then she doesn't know how to cope in the world that does exist because I don't think capitalism is going away anytime soon. And I want to make sure that she's healthfully prepared to engage in society. When she is more autonomous than my roof.

Cindy

Yeah. Well, let me flip the question around a little bit instead of saying, how do we kind of instead of going on the defense against capitalism, let's go on offense. When will we can show our kids that life that there's a lot of life outside of just, you know, the material things. So I'm thinking, getting out in nature, showing them how wonderful and life giving nature could be showing them how kind of scaling down your life can bring you so much joy. And that could be really simple just like spending an evening, you know, playing games that, you know, 10 year old games that you have sitting on your shelf, because I don't we never want to like rules, like rules is very against kind of what what I'm about, right? We don't want to say don't buy this, don't buy that. But to give the alternative, like look at the profound joy that can come from simplicity from being grounded in the outside world. So yeah, I don't know if that's helpful to kind of go on the offense…

Seth

It is helpful, and we do that. So I live at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains. We were out just last week my wife, myself, and my son went on a 14 mile bike ride.

Cindy

Yeah, so that's free, right?

Seth

too which he hated every minute of it because, you know, it's hot. And I'm like, well, you just be quiet. There's no cell phone service out here. How cool is this? There's literally no service out here.

Cindy

Yeah. And letting the kids be bored. Like I think boredom is a really huge thing.

I know it's hard but just to be still and to practice I'm, it's hard for me to think it's hard for all of us because we're all kind of intertwined in the system. But I think it's so important. And, and also, like, I think for a lot of us, like I got into this whole parenting forward thing because I realized that there was a crisis. A lot of times we only make changes when there's a crisis. And I had a crisis of faith shift.

So I think with like capitalism, you know, I think reveal to you to, you know, maybe you and your partner and your children that we were in a crisis here, we're in a crisis where we're overwhelmed with too much stimulation, too much stuff.

Talk about climate change. This is a crisis. Too much stuff is killing the earth. Too much carbon, whatever usage. We have a crisis we need to figure out ways to combat it.

Seth

You write in your book about justice and dignity, and I want to center in on dignity because I've never really heard anyone I never read anyone either. Before what I read in your book about dignity and like you talk about I've heard you talk other well other other places as well about like the United Nations in the way that we as a society, in a culture, dignify kids, and kids is probably a bad word for that. Can you talk to that a bit because I honestly I'd never heard nor read nor even really thought about any of that?

Cindy

Right, I think it's a blind spot a lot of us still have because for years and years and years, but most of human history, children are treated as subhuman. It's only until the last few decades that the United Nations has even recognize that a child is a human being. So it's very recent that we're starting to politically and legally treat children as human beings. But culture, I think popular culture, is still even now taking time to catch up to that standard. And so in many ways, we do treat children as subhuman. And it's easy to do that because they're vulnerable and they can't speak up for themselves. So you know, one example is just posting pictures of kids, we everyone post pictures of their of their babies because babies give consent. And so there's something to it. And I'm not saying that it's across the board, bad to post pictures of babies, but it's something that we just don't even think about.

We take for granted that we can do this without their consent. And that's kind of not treating them as a human being because with other human, you usually ask for consent. Once you open your eyes to that blind spot, then you kind of see it everywhere. You realize the many ways the way people talk about children. There's so many, like parenting humor, websites and videos, it's all over. And some of them are good, but some of them are seriously anti-child. And so I would love for us to kind of wake ourselves up to this reality. And, yeah, talk about how can we actually treat children as human beings?

Seth

So I'll ask you for some of those examples. So outside of not posting them on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter without consent, because I think you're right. I my wife and I've argued about this before of, you know, when, when our kids in 10 years from now, like everything that's on the internet is not going away and we've built this persona of only their best moments, or their most embarrassing moments, one or the other.

Cindy

Right

Seth

And that's who they are, like, that's who the internet. And the algorithms think that that's what they are. Which will impact the news that they see the jobs that they get the college that they get into, it will impact a lot of things. But besides that, what are some other examples to I guess, humanify…that's not a word

Cindy

Humanize.

Seth

There it is. That's the one. Children like, what are some other things for those listening? And they're like, Oh, I didn't see that. It's like just that in the family level. Like, what are some things to do?

Cindy 24:41

Yeah, I think when it comes to like media, when you hear people talk about children or post a video of children or anything in popular media, picture yourself, viewing that from the perspective of a child and think to yourself, what would a child think about this? How would a child feel? I think that's a really effective way. That's what I do to try to kind of get a different perspective.

When it comes to the family, there's gosh, there's so many things like one example that I can think of is, a lot of times our children have emotions. And guess what emotions are super, super human like that.

Seth

and by “alot of times” you mean “All the time”

Cindy

Yeah. I mean, it's like, they get frustrated, they complain, they get angry, they get sad, they get distressed, they get happy there's all this range of emotions that we seem to allow adults to have and just say, yeah, that's totally understandable. And yet when it comes to children, we rush to comfort them to say stop being sad, stop being angry, stop being all these things. And it just is a total double standard. We seem to not let kids be human just as much as we are. And so I think, again, when we have these encounters with our children just think well, how would I want…It's the golden rule…How would I want to be treated if I have been tired and hot all day and I complain really loudly about something. How would I want to be treated?

Seth 26:34

I do want to pivot to that. So I feel like churches in specific, and I did you'd asked earlier you didn't know my upbringing. So I did grow up relatively Southern Baptist-ish. I grew up in the central part of Texas. And part of me doesn't like that. And the other part of me understands that because of that, I'm still the person that I am today. Like, there's still some value in all of that.

Cindy

Yeah,

Seth

here's not and not everything was bad. I won't ever say that. There were some things that were very unhealthy. And so for those that are influencing the children that are in our faith communities, how do they better do that outside of just once a year? Because my fear is and this is often when your name has been recommended is my fear is 30 years from now the church that exists is a broken one, because we haven't been intentional with focusing on I don't want to say youth, I want to say the next generation that will come after us. So what are some ways that we can humanize, enlighten, glorify and and allow space for questioning in our churches? Because the answer would change from denomination to denomination but there has to be a few basic tenants. I think that would work well. Any at any intersection of faith?

Cindy

Well, a lot of people ask me about how to, because I talk a lot I'm their social justice, I talk alot about advocating for marginalized people. And kind of like diversity and reconciliation, those are all kind of buzzwords in faith communities, like we want to be multicultural and, and all these things. And a lot of times people will say, well, we welcome them into our pews. But what we really should be saying is how do we welcome them into our leadership and allow them to have a say in how things are actually run at the most influential levels?

Now, this is tricky to do with children, because are you really going to have children step into board meetings? And my answer is, why not? You know? So I think I think we have to listen to the people. So I feel like I keep repeating myself. It's like think about what a child would say think; same thing when it comes to faith communities how does your child feel? How would a child feel if they stepped into church for the first time? How would they be treated? How would they want the church to be run?

Seth

Do you think we've gotten better? Since you've been studying this? Like as you've as you've watched you year after year after year? Do you feel like we're getting any better as I don't want to say a civilization because every country is different. But do you feel like we're progressing at all? Or are we just stagnant?

Cindy

Since I've been doing this so long? I mean, three or four years?

Seth

Since you since you've been watching?

Cindy

No, I don’t.

Seth

Well, that's awful.

Cindy

Yeah, well, but it hasn't, you know, in the grand scheme, if you think about the history of human civilization, and that's it's only been a couple few decades that you're not even so in the grand scheme of things three and four years is a drop in the bucket, so I wouldn't be too discouraged. I think that the work of justice for children is a marathon.

And that anything that is worth, that is actual change and meaningful change takes a long time. So I wouldn't be too discouraged. I think we just have to stick with it for the long haul. The reason that I say no is because the fundamentalist influence continues to be there. Authoritarianism is continuing to be a huge influence that permeates not just faith communities, but culture. I see that and I realize that we have a long way to go. Are there more resources being created and communities that are trying to truly honor children happening?

I think what I can tell you that I'm discovering more of them, but a lot of them don't get airtime. They just don't get the publicity, which is frustrating to me and something I'm really trying to change. So with this Parenting Forward Conference, it's like I've gathered all these people who are doing amazing work, trying to honor children's autonomy and but you know, many of them don't have big platforms.

So I just want to do my best to keep spreading this message and saying there are Coalition's of people who are doing this work, let's join them and amplify their voices and make our voice louder than the fundamentalists.

Seth

I want to ask you things that I'm sure you've been asked before, and I'll try to do it in the best way possible. But really, they're going to be either questions directly from listeners, because I sequestered questions, I have created this very small community at stay small intentionally and I said, “Hey, I'm gonna be talking about parenting. What do you want to know”? And so I'm going to pull some of those up. I'll be honest, though, that a lot of them center on sexuality, LGBTQ and that type of stuff and so I want to ask you a few of those if that's okay.

Cindy

Sure.

Seth

One person said, and I'll just quote them here. So it says, I know that if asked directly by my son, that my parents will tell him that they believe that his lesbian moms are sinning by even being together and that they believe that we will go to hell for it. When this comes up, how should I address this?

Cindy

When the kids say that… just say grandma's wrong? So, so easy.

Seth

Is it though?

Cindy

It's so funny, because when you told me you solicited questions from your group I was like, I bet I can anticipate every single one of them. A very, very common question is how to deal with fundamentalist parents grandparents.

Seth

Well, that's one of my questions. And specifically, it would be not grandparents, it would be my parent,

Cindy

but your kids grandparents, right?

Seth

Yes.

Cindy

There is so much tension, I think that this is quite particular to our generation right now, because of the changes that have been happening in faith demographics. I think that historians, religious historians, are going to look back at this time and say that this is kind of when we started splitting.

So this is a very common problem. It's very hard for me to give answers because every family is so different and everyone has different values and priorities. I personally would not hesitate to tell my kids that grandma's wrong about this because if anything our kids are more gay affirming than we are. For them they're growing up watching LGBTQ characters in Marvel movies… well, not Marvel quite yet, but it's coming the pipeline.

Seth

Really?

Cindy

Yes, yeah, they have some.

Seth

I don't keep up with it. I just watched the movies, I don't really read about any of the other things. I do enjoy watching them.

Cindy

But you know, TV shows, books, there are lots of for many of them, it's really a non-issue, I don't know if we need to…

Seth

then let me pivot that question, then how do I feel like what I'm hearing in that question is how do I deal as a parent and I'm not, I'm definitely not a lesbian. So how do I deal as a parent with possible shame that comes from that conversation?

Cindy

Yeah.

Seth

How do I help?

Cindy

Yeah, I think it's really important to first of all, recognize that it's shame in this really quite abusive, right for our parents to say that you're living in sin and that who you are. That's, that's abuse. And I think we have to call it what it is, in order to know how to deal with it. And if you know that someone has been abusive to you, you have to create some distance draw some very solid boundaries.

And, as well for your children and say that well, I'm going to choose to not expose my children to that kind of rhetoric. I know it's hard because they’re grandparents and you want them also have that love and nurturing. But so as much as possible, like if it's possible, to still give them exposure but have certain boundaries. But for some families, it's just not possible, especially with very conservative family members, they don't respect those boundaries. And in that case, you know, you still hold the power to how much time you spend with your grandparents, how often you speak to them. And that's the thing about the autonomy to you have the power and I think it's really important to give our kids the power to say that you can express your opinions in front of authority, right, like that's, to me, that's very important that they should never be afraid to say, you know, to say what they believe or or assert themselves.

Seth

So that leads me to my next question. So the age that you and I live in now the the social media age would be the it's…in everything is politically charged. Right. And I've often thought I mean, school just started on Tuesday, and I've already had both of my kids that go to school. Talking about the President and the teacher said this or that said that.

And I am quick to tell them you know, that's wrong, that's racist, and it doesn't matter what anybody says or that's what is loving is loving. And if that offends people, that's more about them, than anything else,

Cindy

Right.

Seth

But how would you recommend someone parents in a way that they I mean, you have to talk about politics because if you don't, that’s think that's dangerous to such as to shy away from the conversation on the other. So how do you broach that topic either, but with children of any age, but But mostly, you know, in a healthy and intentional way?

Cindy

I think there's two things. First of all, I think as parents, we've kind of earned the right to tell our children our values. So let's say you're affiliated with a certain political party, like I think it's okay to tell your child Okay, I'm, you know, whatever. I'm this political party, because these values I align with this is what I believe in. And for now, I think it's important to add for now, because we can always change this is what I align with, and but the other piece of parenting is to give your children again, that autonomy to explore and make decisions for themselves.

And more likely than not, they will imitate you, I found that that's just true, and that's just what children do. But as much as possible, and especially as they grow and as they develop more mature cognitive and critical thinking capacities, the more they can desent and discuss and debate. And I think those are all really good skills and what better way for them to do that, but to practice with you and the safety of your home, but I do agree with you that it's so important now for the kids to learn how to live with a plurality of people with different convictions and how to engage and how to live in society. Like that's those are just life skills, right.

But yeah, so I would say first, don't be afraid. I think a lot of progressive parents are kind of afraid to assert their own ideas and opinions because they're so concerned about letting their kids decide for themselves. I think it's okay, we're all humans and we all get to it's our right to have an opinion. So we share our opinions, but we also give them the space to develop their own.

Seth

At least, and again, I don't know the demographics of where you're at, but within the next, you know, decade or so, at least in the area that I live, my children will become the minority. And so I try to intentionally prepare them for what that should look like. Yeah, always trying to reframe that lens. But I don't know that everybody is intentional that way. And so what are some resources? I mean, you've alluded to this conference and I do want to plug that at the end. I've listened to the most recent episode of your podcast, and I heard about that, and I thought that's, that's a good thing. I also like the time frame that you're doing it in because I work for a living and so that's fantastic. But we will get there in a minute.

What are some resources to do that in an interfaith way? Because it can't just be Christianity that has that conversation. And it can't just be Islam that has that conversation or Hindu or Buddhist or Sikh. So are there any resources to bring faith communities together, to do this as a village is really a tripe word is the wrong way to say it, but it's the best way I can come up with.

Cindy

Okay. Well, you talked, you touched on two things you touched on on race and religion. So I didn't know which one you want me to address.

Seth

I mean, well, they're going to blend together but mostly I want to know where their conversations or communities or resources that blend the faith together. So interfaith because there's truth that you can learn from, there's a lot of truth to learn from other faiths if you can get outside of the Bible Belt.

Cindy

Today, I was just helping promote a curriculum called A Joyful Path, which is an interfaith spiritual curriculum. And I actually got a coupon code it’s CWB 25 and you get 25% off the curriculum there and I'll give you the link that you can link to your show notes. Yes, so that's a spiritual curriculum that is interfaith. It's probably more Christians still drawing mostly on Bible stories, but they have some folk tales from other cultures and religions. And so kind of that idea that yes, wisdom can be found anywhere. I also had interviewed on my podcast, Susan Katz Miller, who talks about interfaith parenting, how to parent when both parents are of different faiths. So, that's another resource. But, you know, I say we create our own let's get, you know, let's use our imagination, get creative and figure out how to form these communities that are truly diverse, faith wise, and racially, and yeah, if any of your listeners are doing this, like let me know I would love to hear stories of how people are actually doing this in their communities, forming kind of healthy communities. Forming kind of healthy communities that are diverse. I think that we're still figuring that out. Right. And I think that's scary and exciting at the same time.

Seth

I think it's more exciting and scary. Because it means that there's a recognition that the issue exists, which is better than say 15 years ago because you can't fix something if you don't even see it. If that makes sense.

Cindy

I think scary and that people are afraid of offending, you know, with all this talk of cultural appropriation and like being racially insensitive. I think I feel it like I'm afraid to offend someone of another religion or appropriating so but I think we just have to be brave and not be afraid to make some mistakes and to own our mistakes when we do make them. I guess I mean, fear in that way, like, okay, it's gonna be kind of messy.

Seth

Well, anything worth doing is probably slightly messy. So here's my other question that came back to me. So you talked about, you know, children modeling after hopefully healthy parenting. And then I can envision, you know, a 13 year old coming into their own embolden with hormones and everything else that happens, and they're trying to be and I'll use a bad word but you know, some version of their parent as a social, like someone who's going to speak out against oppression, or someone that's going to speak out for justice, or speak out against patriarchy, which is a much bigger topic that we haven't touched on, although it's one that I struggle with how to model what a healthy patriarchy is for my wives or so…for my wives for my daughter so that when they are wives

Cindy

Freudian slip,

Seth

like they know what that looks like, yeah, I hope not. So how, how would you best prepare a child that is in that stage of life, that is trying to do trying to voice their voice and that's the best way that I can say it, but they don't necessarily have the knowledge to back it up. Does that make sense? Because that can that could possibly cause trauma.

Cindy

I think it's I think we let them just like I was saying before, don't be afraid to make mistakes. So don't be afraid to let our children make mistakes. That's how we learn is by making mistakes. So yeah, they're not gonna, you know, they might parent some rhetoric, they might be a little bit offensive, but especially for girls like, because our girls are given such strong messaging from the world then you might not see it because you're a man.

But I think women will be able to tell you…Yeah, we are told to be quiet. We were told to be silent. We're told to not, not speak our opinion out loud. We're told to apologize if our tone isn't quite right. To smile more, to be more polite to be more of a bridge builder. Those are all messaging I receive every single day as a public person as a woman.

So I know that it's out there and I know it's very strong. So anytime girls speak up, have an opinion, share their opinion, however loud they do I say, encourage it, because anything you say to try to tamper that is another voice telling them to be quiet. Like, we have to counter that voice telling them to be quiet, so and but I mean of course what once they, you know speak their opinions and maybe it's like problematic; what they've said. Of course you can have conversations with them and say, Okay, well let's talk about it, but talk to them as equals. Don't condescend. Don't say you said that wrong. That was dumb. You know, don't say that ever again. loud. Say Hey, listen, this is ,you know, this is what I've learned maybe this is something we can discuss. Here's what I feel about it. What do you think.

Seth

Hmm, I promise I'll stop asking questions. So we're beginning to get to questions I have. So for myself, I wasn't raised that way. And I don't think you were either, but I could be wrong with that.

Cindy

Yeah

Seth

I find myself often immediately reverting back to an authoritarian figure. Yeah, I talked about this a few weeks ago with some friends. I don't know if I've ever actually said it out loud. And so I won't edit this out. Maybe I did. I don't remember. I probably have blocked it is traumatic. What are some steps that parents can do when they're starting to realize “holy crap? This is not this is to get unhealthy. Yeah, really quick, right?” Because I often find myself and luckily I married a woman that will come in and be like, you need to Yeah, like I hear your voice. I've known you for a long time. I'm gonna need you to go do literally anything else,

Cindy

Time out for dad.

Seth

But sometimes it's also the same for her like I'll walk Kelly, what do you what are you doing? No, no leave. I need you to go away.

But outside of that, because there's also single parent, a lot of single parents like, what are some what are some practical steps to be like, you know, I feel myself slipping into what was beaten into me quite literally as a child.

Cindy

Yeah, that's a great question. I think this is this is a part of parenting because it allows us and it almost forces us to confront our own wounds. Because if we don't address our own wounds, spiritual or otherwise, and sometimes even physical, then we will risk passing that on just as you describe, will we will use the same system that was used on us will inflict the same pain that we endured on to our children. And so this is almost kind of a separate work apart from your children because your children are not responsible for fixing you or healing you. You have to do that hopefully with other adults or with a therapist. And I think the first thing to do is to actually know, understand that what was done to you was wrong, that it was authoritarian that it was abusive and that you are suffering from trauma. Like you said, all those words, but to reiterate that understand this happened to me it was traumatic. And we know so much more about the way trauma works now that we have the tools and the resources to begin to address it. And none of us are going to do this perfectly, because again, that's not how trauma works. It doesn't just disappear overnight. But I think having the posture of being willing to do the work of healing within ourselves and wanting to do better, is a huge departure from you know, maybe our parents to even that awareness and consciousness. So, yeah, I think one thing I would say is just to be be aware, don't make your children do that work for you. You know, do that work yourselves or with other adults, with your friends, with your community with a therapist.

And I think that will go a long ways to you. And then as you begin to break those cycles of treating your parents differently, I think that is incredibly healing to you, as the parents, as you see, oh, wow, it doesn't have to be this way it gets to stop with me. Like that's incredibly empowering to know that the trauma that happened to us, doesn't control us. It doesn't have to dictate our future and it gets to stop. And I think that will go a long way in even future incidents as you get triggered again, from your own pain to say, Hey, you know, I am resilient, and I can break the cycle.

Seth

I like that. That's a good word. Your kids are not responsible for fixing you. I like that a lot. Plug the places and the so where did the people go? To get your book? Where do they go to get in touch with you and then talk to me a bit about this conference, specifically. And I may edit this part out. When is it? Because I want to make sure the episode is out before that, yeah. so that people can actually participate in the conference, provided it's not like tomorrow because as we've alluded to, I'm the only one that does this. So that's just won't happen.

Cindy

Yeah, so my my conference is called Parenting Forward conference. And you can find the information on that on parentingforwardconference.com, it's going to be online, which means anybody with a computer and an internet connection can join. And it's the dates are September 23 to 27th. And it's going to be every evening and Eastern time. And the reason it's kind of an odd time is because I'm in Taiwan, so I kind of had to fit my schedule. But the good news is that all of the recordings will be accessible to you. So if you can't make it live, then you can just watch the recordings at some other time.

It will be 20 plus speakers all from either parenting niche or the progressive faith niche. And I'm really excited because there are a lot of people who talk about progressive faith. A lot of them are your previous podcast guests. And they don't normally talk about parenting. And this is something that I want to change, because I think parenting is one of the most important things that you can talk about if you want to promote social change. So I'm excited to kind of draw these speakers together to talk about this one topic of how we raise children with justice. And so check out the speakers on the websites. Do you want to get my book it's called parenting forward and it's available on Amazon and everywhere where books are sold.

Seth

So you should go get you should go get the book, I think everyone listening should

Cindy

thank you.

Seth

Thank you so much for coming on. I did not know that there was a 12 hour time difference, but that's even more impressive, but thank you. I really appreciate you coming on.

Cindy

Thank you for having me.

Outro

I like what Cindy said there at the end it is not the work of our children to do the work for us when we go through trauma and I know so many times and I've seen so many people read and write about and speak on you know we have to be the ones that break the cycle and so that can be traumatic cycle that can be abusive cycles that can be sexual abuse that can be bad faith, bad religion and bad ways to binarily see the world I pray and I hope that we just get better at it. I think that we can.

A huge thank you to the Eagle and Child for the use of their music in this show. They have become one of my favorite albums of the year. You will find the music from today on the Spotify playlist for Can I say this at church which because, of some beautiful human, that has been converted into also an apple music playlist. So search for that out and not quite certain how to find that link but feel like if you use Apple Music; you are so I will talk with you all next week. I cannot wait. Have a good one.