Intro

Welcome to another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I'm so thankful that you're here. Before we get started. In today's episode, I want to make a brief feel to your patronage. This podcast is supported completely in 100%t by you, if you have in any way felt moved or challenged or impacted or enjoyed what you've heard, please consider going to our Patreon page, you can find the link in the show notes. You can also find that link at the website. Your donation in any amount is so helpful and I am greatly appreciative for it.

My guest today is Pastor Sean Palmer. Sean is currently a teaching pastor at a church in Houston, Texas. In 2013. He was profiled in the Christian standard magazine's 40 leaders under 40. He's a contributing writer for The Voice Bible project. His writings have also been featured on Scott McKnights, Jesus creed blog, sojourners, Fox News, Christianity Today, he's also the co-host of the not so black and white podcast; seek that out again, that's called not so black and white podcasts that he co-hosts with John Allen Turner, it is well worth your listen, and I've enjoyed listening to it as well.

The topic at hand is concerning his new book Unarmed Empire in which Sean speaks to those that have been misled about church, for anyone that feels blacklisted, anyone that's been hurt and we discuss that and how the church can move forward as a whole, how we can lean into a better community to a heart of hospitality.

So without further ado, I would like to introduce you to Sean Palmer. And it breaks again.

Seth 2:44

Sean, thank you for being on the podcast with me today. And I want to take some time here in a little bit to discuss your new book on Empire, but beforehand, I'm almost certain there will be some people listening that are just unfamiliar with you. So if you could just briefly give me a crash course of how you came to do the work that you do. And then we'll just kind of roll from there.

Sean

I'm glad to be here. Seth, thank you for having me on the show. I look forward to talking to you about the book. Just a little bit about me. I live in Houston, Texas. I am the teaching pastor at a church here Eclesia Houston we're a multi site church here and I have been in ministry, I guess coming up in pastors and churches. At the end of this month, it will be 20 years I will have completed 20 years of doing that. So I started in the youth ministry world and did that for a dozen years before I moved into senior ministry. And I've been doing that since since that time, both here in Texas and California. Couple of different places. I grew up in the south, Mississippi and Georgia, went to do my undergrad and graduate school at Abilene Christian University. So that's a school associated with Churches of Christ denomination or non-denomination, depending on who you talk to,. And so that's that's about it. We live here in Houston.

My wife and I've been married for almost 20 years. We have two daughters we think the world of and most of my ministry at this point is traveling and speaking and writing I do a good bit of writing had a long term blog for a while wrote for Scott McKnight and some others gave that up about a year ago to write for Missio Alliance to focus on my attention there. That's also who we do our podcasts. I have a podcast called not so black and white with a friend of mine, John Allen Turner. And that's in partnership with Missio Alliance. So if you stumble across Missio Alliance, you can look for me there and find just about everything that I've been up to in the last couple of years.

Seth

Yeah, I have stumbled across their stuff and read some of their interpretation of the research on millennials leaving the church and reasons why. Yeah, so I enjoyed that greatly. So would….this is unfair…o I'm from Texas, I actually visited Abilene Christian and Hardin Simmons University during the same whatever day to let you skip school was a senior day. Yeah,

Sean

Well they are just right down the street. So you make good use of your time.

Seth

Yeah, well, you have to have that note to prove that you went so. Or you you know, you get you get called out and ultimately I went to Liberty but I have…So my brother was born in San Dimas. And so I've lived in California. I've lived in Texas. So unfair question unrelated to anything In and Out Burger or What A Burger.

Sean

That's a tough call. I think they are really different. I like them both a lot. Got like their fries got when push comes to shove. Like, if I had to choose one or the other. I would probably go with What A Burger. But if I was just getting a burger that I would definitely opt for In and Out.

Seth

Yeah, I like the scripture verse. And that's about it. So your book, what kind of was the story behind that, or I guess the Genesis that made you ultimately want to write it?

Sean

Well, I grew up a child of the church like I was essentially born in the Pew nearly and I was the kid who never missed a worship gathering. And that's back in the days in the 80s, where it was Sunday morning, Sunday night every single missions trip.. And and the church handed me I was part of the small churches in Mississippi, and Georgia for a while. And the church handed me this vision of what God called us to as a community of people, and how we're supposed to live that out in the world. And they talked about a lot. I mean, from in my the church of my youth, we talked about the church as a sensuality for life, a good bit of the time. And what I saw as I got older, I started working in churches. That so much of what I was taught as a child still lived in the rhetoric of churches, but not in the actual application of what our communal life looked like.

And so it was things like hospitality and openness to the other. It was things like extension of grace and peace. And I started reading the Apostle Paul, just understanding what the music kind of playing in the background of the New Testament as he writes letter after letter to these churches, what that really is this conflict between Jew and Gentile, or at least the tensions that existed there, and what his prescription was for that. And I, it dawned on me that folks have done a really great job of sort of teasing out a scripture here, and a paragraph there from Paul to make certain arguments about particular theological knots that they were trying to untie. But we weren't looking at the big scope of what he was trying to accomplish, and his writing and why he was trying to accomplish it. And at the heart of that is this kind of community that reaches out in love and hospitality and openness and acceptance, and almost all of that had been lost in 21st century American evangelicalism, it'd become the app, the opposite of that, where it had become, hey, these are, these are the rules, or at least our interpretation of the rules. And these are the things that we're going to put more weight on and the Bible puts weight on, these are ways that we're going to try and draw out division instead of open ourselves up for engagement.

And I wanted to write about that in a way that folks who were not in agreement with me at the beginning of the book would at least be open to the argument. So it's the kind of book, I think, for three people, it's for people who have been really wounded by the church. It's for people who love the people who have been wounded by the church and want them to come back and find the life that God intended in the community that God intended it to be lived out in., and it's for the people who have unwittingly done the wounding. And so you know, I didn't have a big enough picture of what God was up to, and what God was calling the church to and all of this. So it's for all of those people. And I hope that it at least starts a conversation with folks who really want to investigate what God is doing, and how he's bringing about his preferred future.

9: 49

Seth

So when you say, people that have been wounded? You mean? You mean what, specifically, like I grew up extremely fundamentalist, and so wounding to me, I think, would hold a different view than some. So what do you mean by people that have been wounded?

Sean

What I mean is, it's anyone who feels that they have been shunned or condemned or tried to, or controlled by a local body of believers. For whatever reason, they asked too many of the wrong kinds of questions, or they were trying to figure out what a holy sexuality looked like when their sexuality didn't feel to them, hetero normative. They were trying to look at their world and say, you know, we see a lot of black churches and white churches, and what's that about? And how does that represent what God is doing in the Gospel? So it's for people who have really been caught up in the crossfire, on all of these wars that we keep talking about all the time, you know, like, war on Christmas, and all of the, you know, war on the family and the war against women or for women, or, or, you know, all of these folks who look at the church and say, “I have some understanding of what Jesus taught and came to do. And my engagement, my time in a local church wasn't what Jesus was revealing to His disciples about how to live in the world”.

And that's been wounding to they've been hurt, because you know, when I was a kid, because I like to use that's like, I grew up in a fundamentalist churches. But we, what happened in the church, and I talked about this in the book is that suddenly, church leaders and their children started going through rough spots in their marriages, and some of them chose divorce. And now we look at those people and folks are going through a difficult time in their marriage. And they show up at our doorstep for a worship service, or in a Bible class or a small group, and we look at them and we go, well, thank goodness, you're here. We're glad we want to walk with you through this. But just 25-30 years ago, the same people were being shunned and saying you can't come into that. And so there are other people groups that we are doing that with right now that we are saying, You can't do that and be a part of you can't ask those questions here. You can't explore that here. And my hunch is that in another 30 years, we're going to be the place that they come and, and be loved and welcomed. And we will walk in journey with them through whatever difficult time they're having. And that's part of what I'm trying to get at in the book.

Seth

One of the questions that has always been rattling around in the back of my head is, is, I guess my fear for the church is, say, 60 years from now, when my kids are middle age. Is it the evangelical quote unquote, church of today, going to turn into the Mennonite and Amish Church of the right now, if we don't make a difference or a choice? I'm glad at least for the Baptist though there should be some good recipes. But, I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? And you may touch on on things around that. But I'm just curious.

Sean

Well, it really debate depends on what you mean by Mennonite and Amish?

Seth

Well, at least where I'm, I'm from here, it's you know that people look at them from a distance. They don't necessarily care what they do. They're really nice people, but that's just something they do. And there's never a second thought to it. No, no outreach, no, no ministry.

Sean

I think the lifeblood of evangelicalism is fundamentally evangelistic. I don't think that that will ever happen in evangelicalism, what will because there is even when we see some really toxic portrayals of evangelicalism in the public square, if people were to get down to the root of what's causing some of that, what they will discover is that evangelicals, for whatever reason, really think that the world should be converted to something. Right? And that part of their existence in the world is to play a role in that conversion.

So the Amish don't necessarily feel that way. You know, there have been in the last hundred years less than 100 Amish converts who have stayed. I know this because my wife is very much into Amish literature and reads a lot of Amish books. We took a vacation a couple years ago to Amish country; and in many ways, it's a BM, you know, it's the beautiful side of fundamentalism, right? It's very good communal, it's very other centered is very service center, but it is not evangelistic, and I can say that on a podcast because no Amish people will hear it.

Seth

laughter

Sean

And so that won't happen in evangelicalism. What is what is more likely to happen in evangelicalism is that the people who are portraying the most toxic versions of evangelicalism or at least hiding their other agendas behind the name of evangelicalism, which is I think, is more more of what happens, the people who are hiding their agendas behind the fig leaf of evangelicalism will place evangelicalism in a situation in a posture where it will simply be ignored, where someone will say they are an evangelical, and we're already seeing this. I mean, I think Russell Moore, that article today, kind of outlining kind of where he sees that going, well as more likely to happen is when someone says they are an evangelical, that will be associated with a set of precepts and principles that don't have anything to do with the gospel. But it has to do with a particular view of America's future.

Seth

Yeah, it's a Christianity version of politics in Jesus, and it's in it's really neither of those. So yeah, and I will say that's, that's what's disenfranchised me from from Liberty, which is where I chose to spend money to go to school after visiting Abilene Christian, and yet not to get political. But I've been so disheartened with the picture of Jesus, that that the way that they treat things just portrays it a Jesus, that's, that's not my Jesus. So, so that is the opposite of a beloved community. So how then instead, can can, I guess our generation, lean into creating a beloved community where we're at, because I know when I drive, to church, you know, the the black churches are all together, the poor churches are all together, the rich churches are really rich. The Hispanic churches are really Hispanic, and there's very little, there's very little community, there's a lot of little cliques, or that's probably a bad word. So how do you instead lean into becoming a beloved community?

Sean

Well, I think there are a few things that are really key:

One, we have to and I did this, I try to study some the the second chapter of the book where I talk about the healing of the nation's is churches, first of all, have to have a theological framework that not only welcomes and embraces others, but understands that the coming together of all kinds of people from all different places, and all different backgrounds, that that is central to what the gospel is. That's what Paul is doing, that has been God's aim from the beginning. And without that theological understanding, without framework that says, this is actually the story of the Bible, that God is bringing together, God is healing all the nations and bringing them together, then it will always be secondary or tertiary kind of thing that churches will essentially, you know, take the posture of, Finn, the beautiful side of that is that so much of this, because it's all biblical, because that's what God is aiming for. So much of it is already inherent in the practices of the church, that's inherent in communion. Its inherent in worship, if we can, if we can divorce the ways that we have done that to be pretty self serving,then those practices are already there.

You know, one of the things that I talk about in the book is this idea of like, our practices really can save us, without us having to go out and create something. You know, there's a chapter you're in there about, about drinking real wine. And so what does it what does it mean then to, to, to sit down at table with someone and let's look at what happens that every time Jesus sits at a table, like there's an extension of forgiveness, and healing, every time Jesus eats with someone. So who we share our table with then becomes a really big deal. And so if you if you just couple a couple of ideas together, this idea that God really is healing the nation's and taking seriously who's at table with us, maybe our table without having to change anything in our church, you know, initially, maybe our table is a place where we can start to extend healing, and grace and openness to the other.

So you can do that at your house, you can do that over coffee, you can do it in a restaurant, without saying, hey, my whole congregation, we've got this big new program. And we're going to do all we can, and I've got some friends who are doing this. Lots of people want to talk about racial healing. Well, that's great. I encourage my Caucasian friends, you know, if you look around your church, and it's all white folks, and my African-American friends, if you look around your church, and it's all African-Americans, that's part of the problem, you might need to covenant with a different body of believers. And if enough of us who say we take these things seriously, begin to put actions behind them that take them seriously. That's when we begin to see change, and growth and understanding. And it none of that's going to be easy. But it is the task that is that's ahead of us.

Seth 20:37

So hearing you speak, and I'm currently finishing. Richard Beck's Stranger God book. I don't I don't know if you've read it or not. But he talks a lot about habit, you have it? Yeah. He talks a lot about hospitality and how, just what you were saying a little bit, you got to get out of what makes me comfortable and go to the margins, and in and brining people in that are not necessarily allowed, “at your table”. And that there's just beauty in that. And he argues that you see Jesus in that, I guess, in the act of trying to serve that way. So I just think that's beautiful.

So you talked a little bit about just a second ago, that can be you know, ratio, healing, political healing, whatnot. But how I mean, that the climate that you and I live in right now, especially over here, I'm 30 miles west of Charlottesville. Everything is so charged, and ministers and churches want to take sides on, you know, race or white supremacy or anything like that. So how do you? How does a church or a layman in in the church walk that back and begin to re center that into a way to bring people in, or to go to those people? But how can you do that without being disingenuine? But how can you do it in in a good way?

Sean

Well, I think you're exactly right, in that we live in a particularly charged political climate, where you can't say and just to, just to name the elephant in the room; and this is particularly thorny for, for pastors right now, you can't say anything without it being taken as a referendum on President Trump.

Like, you know, you can't even you can't speak to a particular policy, without being castigated as either “pro Trump or anti Trump”, which is terribly unfair. Because the one thing and I think Martin Luther King is a great example of this, as well as some other, you know, legendary pastors of the past. And I think this is one of the things that Beth Moore is doing really well, right now is that the path forward for most of us in the pastorate is that we really got to talk about particular issues. Regardless of what candidate or with a news headline, so, you know, for our congregation, our church has long history to talking about refugees and immigrants. And so when we talk, that's the one thing that we can talk about now, that doesn't carry that baggage. Because we can look around and say, Well, you know, we've been talking about this for 12 years, you know. And so the only way forward, and I think we just have to, we're in a time where we have to be crystal clear about this. So this particular thing matters to us as a body, and here are the reasons. And it's it matters today, regardless of who we elect to the Senate, or regardless of who is in the White House, because those things will change. And we are not, I think more than ever, we have to be very clear about the fact that we are not choosing sides. And the reason we don't choose sides politically, isn't because there's not a right and wrong side in alot of these things, and we know inevitably that those things will change. And seven, or I guess in three or seven years, we will have a different occupant in the White House, we're coming into the White House regardless. Right? And so what do I want to give away in terms of my ability to speak and my voice now, knowing that that's going to be different, but you know what I can do, because we live in Texas.

We're going to stand with kids who were brought to this country, by their parents from Mexico. And under no, for no fault of their own are here. And the everyone that we know is contributing to their own future contributing into the fabric of our community, we can stand with those people, because we've always stood with those people. And regardless of who's in the White House, we're going to do that. We're going to stand against racism, we're going to stand against misogyny and sexism. And, you know, it's the people right now, Seth, who can't say anything about President Trump, because they didn't say anything about Bill Clinton. And it's the people who said so much about Bill Clinton, and now are being silent about Trump, in terms of their sexual ethics, those are the people who speak without authority. But if we are consistent in what we believe, in and out of season, regardless what's happening around us politically, at least when people make that charge against us, and I've had this happen, I had it happen a couple years ago about something that I wrote. I said, no, no, no, go back and look at this, this, this and this that I wrote three or four years ago, when we had a different occupant in the White House. And I was saying the same thing. If you're saying it differently, now, that's really got to do with you. And so we can't make everybody happy, but we can at least keep our own integrity.

Seth

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and everybody's going to filter everything through whatever lens I was given, or taught, you know, through through school, or through raising up, you know. Thinking about reconciliation in all forms of the church, there's a there's a song by either the Gungor Band, or Gungor, or I don't know what it is, and one of the lyrics is, church has to stop being us or them, it should be us for them. And that it brings that to mind, as well as and I know, in Texas, and quickly becoming that way, in Virginia, the current majority will change also in seven or eight years. I mean, we, both white and blacks are quickly being outnumbered by almost every other race, which will bring an entirely different everything.

I want to circle back around to the book, and something we haven't talked on much. You talk about an unarmed empire, which I don't quite understand what you mean by that. But I want to be careful, because I know you're in Texas. And I know I was raised in Texas. And, and I know we got guns, and I know we are armed. I mean, that's what many, many people politic on everywhere. So what do you mean by an unarmed Empire, I guess in relation to a, you know, a community?

Sean

Well, really, this comes from, the way Jesus internet sent to the world that Jesus comes proclaiming the kingdom of God is here. And a kingdom, it is an empire, that it has a rule, ruler, people, and a place where, the Kings rule is done. Right. So that's what an empire is, it is a place where the one who rules is followed, because he is the one who rules and then unarmed. Because Jesus enters the world, it's good to talk about this during the Advent season, though I don't know when you will publish it. But that's when that's when you and I are talking about sharing, that Jesus comes into the world completely vulnerable, as a baby, I mean, you know. And sadly enough, there are a couple of stories every year that you hear of a baby who dies from exposure, and all these other can't feed himself can't work, can't produce anything.

And then as an adult, he sends out his disciples, in Luke 10. And he says, In the the translation I use called the voice, the voice Bible, that he sends them out into the world armed only with vulnerability. And Jesus goes to the cross it garbled , other, so many of the other disciples and vulnerability. And so what God's kingdom is, is an unarmed Empire, people who follow this king who are dedicated to this kings rule and reign, but enter into the world, a world full of wolves, but they are unarmed. They go without, with the only protection they have, being the protection, approved and delivered to them by God. So when I think when I talked about unarmed Empire, it's about a posture of Christians toward the world that we serve God and all that we do, is to foster God's kingdom. But we do so not like the Romans did at the edge of a sword, or lots of military powers throughout the ages where we are going to enforce peace, through displays of power.

But by being vulnerable, by saying, we know we're not going to be received by everybody. We know that there are going to be slings and arrows. We know that there are going to be shipwrecks and beatings and imprisonments and all of the things that the disciples suffered, but they still did it that way, for a reason. Because they knew that God's power is made perfect in weakness. And there are no needs for these grand displays of power, when the one who stands behind you is the most powerful force in the universe.

So we have no fear as Dallas Willard says, “for the Christian, the the world is a completely safe place to be”. And so we enter into that calling enter into God's world, unarmed because we are trusting in God to deliver us from all things.

Seth

Oh, man. You see that, that's it's a little bit scary in…I think, honestly, would be scary for most people across the country. Because I know in America, it seems like we have many religions. There's Christianity on Sunday, and the rest of the week, it's football, more football, and then and then war. I mean, we're, darn…we're born doing it, as a country. So what do you do as as a pastor, you're standing up and you're preaching that on Sunday? And you're gonna, I'm sure you're going to get pushback? Well, at least in my church you might, I think you would your church is probably used to it. Maybe so what do you do? I'm not a pastor, but if there's any listening to, to preach sort of pacifist but also not at the same time to preach that version of relationships?

Sean

Well, I think one of the things that you have to do is, first you have to, you have to embody it as a person that you do not whatever it is, whether you're a pastor, whether you sell real estate, where that you do not live the way you treat your children, your spouse, that you do not live from a place of violent or coercive power to get people to do things that you want them to do. So that's one of the ways. But also, I think, and this is what Jesus does so marvelously throughout the Gospels, is that he unmasks and undermines the notion that coercive military physical, manipulative power, he uncovers those things to be the evils that they are. If you look through the, the teachings of Jesus, the people who come off the worst, are the ones who try to use power to control or manipulate. From the way Jesus talks about leadership when he says, you know, the Gentiles lord it over others, but but not with you.

What does he mean by that? I mean, that's a teaching that people kind of gloss over. And they think, well, “don't be mean to people who are, who serve under you”!

But what Jesus is getting at is that like power, the use of top down coercive power is not the way things are done in the kingdom. If they were the way that things done in the kingdom, then God would send a lightning bolt and kill everybody. Versus this baby who comes in a manger, to be sacrificed on a cross to take away the sins of the world. This is this is Paul talking about the cross is foolishness to the Greeks, this idea, that a certain kind of power is indeed powerless, when it comes against the power of love, and of self sacrifice, and that's the Gospel story. You don't see the disciples taking over, beating anybody up bullying, anyone demanding things, they just don't do it. Jesus doesn't do that. And when he's faced with a question, during his trial, he just says all the power that you have comes from God, because Jesus understands that he is about to dethrone the way that power is understood in our world through the mechanism of the cross, and overcome defeat, sin and death, which are, up until that point up until the point of Jesus's death, the most daunting powers in the universe. And you keep preaching that message, you keep revealing that. And so you say, look through history, if you're, if you're preaching on Sunday, just look through history.

Nero thought that that was that power work that way. Hitler thought power work that way. Napoleon thought power work that way. Over and over and over again, throughout history. There are these powers and when you get down under it, you see that while small acts done by what they would have considered powerless people, to then to then move the world to their cause. Yeah, hey, long enough people begin to form an imagination around it.

Seth 35:23

Yeah. And I mean, thinking back to you're talking about the disciples never did that. The one time they did try to take up arms and lop off a guy's ear. Christ immediately said, we don’t, that's not what we're doing here. Let me repeat it. This is not

Sean

he says, Get behind Me, Satan. Yeah, there is that Jesus associates that kind of obstructive bloodletting power with forces that I don't know that we want to be associated with.

Sean

Yeah. So love trumping over not had to play on words, love, striding over the rules,

Sean

I think it's impossible to miss how Jesus behaves, and how the disciples behave, given the fact that you go back to the political point. There, there are very few biblical characters both in the first and second testament. who like, whatever governmental power they lived under, it was worse than ours.

Seth

Yeah, they were slaves, or, I mean, the church, or God's people have always been enslaved in it. And at least currently, we're not that so. Well, maybe to capitalism but that's something different. Keeping in mind with preaching a gospel of love and and trying not to be warlike or aggressive is there ever a case then, as a nation or quote, unquote, a church body to go and defend? Should we always just just turn turned to a posture of, I don't know what the word is. Hope, not helplessness. I don't know what the word is. I'm struggling to find the word.

Sean

Defenselessness?

Seth

That's it nailed it. My thesaurus is broken a day.

Sean

It depends on what you mean, I'm not a pacifist, though, I think we need to take pacifist thought much more seriously. And it really needs to be placed in a realistic dialogue with just war theory. if for no other reason that I've never seen a war in history, we're just war stopped us from going to war. Just war theory, as far as I know, has never stopped a nation from going to war. So it seems to be a theory that allows us the freedom of conscience to do what we wanted to do anyway. But I'm not a pacifist, and I, so I do think there are times where the state has to defend itself or defend the vulnerable and the weak. Our inclination is probably to do that more quickly than I would like. But I understand that we live in a world where there is real evil. And I think there are some things that we have to and can only truly understand as powers and principalities. And those things have to be resisted. Is there a time for the church to defend something, it depends on what you mean about defense. Because the best critique is always creativity, to create something more beautiful and to to work towards something more holistic. So obviously, churches aren't going to go to a physical war against it.

Seth 38:49

Well, I mean, I mean, defense in so much, as you'll see in your references earlier, you know, we have to fight back against the war on Christmas or fight for the 10 commandments to stay up at this public park or fight for ever, whatever it is fight for abortion, fight for not letting people be LGBTQ. And I'm missing a letter, and I'm sorry.

Sean

LGBTQIA is what your…

Seth Oh, gosh, I miss two letters.

Sean

Here's what I think the church's role is. We are to love and advocate for people. So I'm trying to think I'm sure there are examples, I just can't think of them. I can't think of a situation where making sure that there's a nativity scene down at the courthouse is really going to make a difference in the lives of people who are either away from the Lord or suffering greatly. I'm sure that someone Someone will make an argument, say, I know, someone who was walking down, I saw an activity at the courthouse, and it changed their life. Well, that's great; I'm sure that story is out there somewhere, right? I don't hear that story a lot. You know, I live around a lot of Christians, and I'm at a big church, and I just haven't heard that story. I just haven't heard that story.

So more times than not, what we're really doing is saying we want to keep, we want to keep our religion and our religious beliefs Central and privilege in a particular way. And that's not, that's not particularly helpful in winning people, to God's love. So all the things that will be fought for, absolutely. But I want to make sure that we use the right weapons, and the right weapons, regardless of what we're fighting for our love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. And if we, if we aren't using those weapons, or if we can't use those weapons to fight for the things that we're fighting for, we're fighting for the wrong things. And and I want us to as a church, to really look at what the New Testament means when it talks about loving people, because what typically happens is that we decide a course of action, or we think we know what's best for other people. And we will set out on it and then rationalize how that thing that we're doing is actually love.

Seth

Right…right.

Sean

Right. I it's kind of like you know, it's every abusive husband, and every abusive boyfriend that I have ever known. They were doing that to their girlfriend or their spouse, their wife, every single one of them can tell you that they did it because they loved him. You know, OJ Simpson in the back of his white Bronco is telling the police, all I did was ever love Nicole, up until the point still where he was virtually cutting her head off.

And so he wrapped anything, we wrap our actions around terminology to make ourselves feel better. And we don't ask the question, Well, does this seem does it feel like love to the person that it's being enacted on? I know, people who would say, you know, art tax, you know, someone becoming going through sexual reassignment surgery, I think we ought to stand up against that, and we modified it. And we do it because we ought to love them. Now, I know people who could say that with a straight face and mean it. And I also know people who would say that the same thing and what they really mean by it is, I don't like those people. Yeah. And so it's a question of motives and heart and being serious about what if what we're saying is actually what we mean.

Seth

Sean, I want to be want to be respectful of your time and your family's time. I'm sure you're you're taking away time from your, from, from your wife and from your kids. Oh, they're all asleep? Yeah, mine are as well above, but we'll see if they wake up with me. And so it's, and I think you've already answered it, but I want to just hit the nail on the head. And then after the last question, just just let you plug the book a little bit, and anything else that where you can direct people to find you? The question I've asked everyone is what is one thing as, as a church community, regardless of your denomination that we can step into that would that would further the kingdom in a generative way,

Sean

I would say this, that every church leadership and maybe just do do it even in a in as assembly so everyone can see it, I don't know how practical that is, for everybody might depend on your church size, but needs to put a big map on the wall and draw circle, about five to seven miles away from wherever it is that they meet. And look at each other in the eye and say, everything within this five miles.

We belong to this community and not that they belong to us. But we belong to this community. And because we belong to them, we are going to orient ourselves around serving them with love meeting them with their needs, and being as vulnerable as we can, and open an unarmed as we can to this community. I think that would reshape the world. So whatever, elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, if you've got a homeless population in that five to seven miles, if you've got whatever undeserved if you've got wealthy people within that seven miles, say, okay, like, we belong to them, God put us here for a reason. And it is fair for them to make demands of us, because we belong to them.

And every church can just walk those five or seven miles and and pray for that community, meet that community know who's there and know what the needs are. Without this in game of how can we get you to come to our church. But we just want to love you, with a metric being, we're not going to do anything to you that we wouldn't want someone else to do to her for us. If you don't want someone else in your face, about all the things that they perceive that you've done wrong, we're not going to do that. If If you don't want someone her harassing you, if you if you want someone to be a good neighbor, and to know your needs, and know your story, if you want someone to mow your yard, whatever it is that we belong to you in a particular way. And we're going to do our best to be God's ambassadors in this place. That's what I would say, to all those people.

Seth

That's big, I think, yeah, I can't I mean, I can't say any better than that. That is that would change the world. So in wrapping up, where would you direct people to buy the book, to get engaged to converse with you? Just to get involved a little bit? Where would you point people?

Sean

Well, first of all, the book is available at Amazon, and Barnes and Noble, just those places where lots of folks get their books now and it's an armed Empire. And my name is Sean Palmer. SEAN is how I spell Sean, or at least how my mother gave it to me.

If you live in Houston, is to come down to our elder campus, our downtown campus for Ecclesia and buy the book there, only because you'll get it cheaper there. And all the proceeds for that go to Harvey relief, hurricane Harvey. Really so if you're, if you're in the area, which I know most people aren't, that's the best thing to do.

But you can get it on Amazon pretty easily enough. You can. I'm easy to find through the echo CEO web page. My email is just Sean Palmer@ecclesiahouston.org. Follow me on Twitter, Sean at Shawn Palmer, Facebook, I'm pretty easy as as you have found out, right, I'm pretty easy to get ahold of. And love talking with people about the content of the book and the last chapters are the best chapters. So stick with it through the end.

Seth

I greatly appreciate coming on. Appreciate your time. Enjoyed it, Sean so hope you have a good night and thank you very much.

Sean

Oh, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it.

End