Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Andrew 0:00

In all of my searching through other streams of our faith tradition, I always find myself coming back to like a nondenominational, charismatic, experience. That's just where I fit partially because I was raised in it. And also partially because for me, I think that healthy charismatic Christianity does give room for mysterious things. Because they allow…they allow you to reinterpret Scripture in the moment because it feels prophetic. And God is breathing on it to use some of the language. And so it's like this is for now or this is for me. And to me, that's a very, very healthy approach. Because in that approach, you actually experience your identity as a child of God instead of as a servant. Like, I think it's like Galatians 3, and I think that mystery is realizing that everything that God has put before you is a potential tableau of the secrets of his heart that he wants to share with you.

Seth Intro 1:05

Here we are, there is 48 hours left in 2019. And so I wanted to go out with a bang, and I need your help. You can help one of a couple ways. You know what's coming, here we go rate and review the show on iTunes. But really seriously, truly support the show on Patreon. I can't do this show without you. There are 50 of you amazing people that do actually make this show happen. And let's see if we can get that to 60.

I do have larger plans for the show. Someone asked me not long ago, you know if you could do that (the show) for living with you. I was like Absolutely. Absolutely!

We are a long way from there. How amazing would that be? To get anything out of any of these shows? Consider throwing a bug two 350 cents whatever a month towards helping to create an sustained the Can I Say This At Church podcast all those added together really do go a long way. And for those of you that already do that, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're in for a treat. So I've friend, his name is Andrew Parks, the dude is brilliant. And you're going to see what I mean. He also is hilarious. So much laughter, so much joy in this episode. And so here's what you're in store for.

There's a bit of Andrews story, because I like to weave that into every conversation. But we talk about mysticism, what that looks like. We try to talk about what is God. And we do that through a lens of mysticism, using Bologna and a Diet Coke. And that doesn't make sense right now. But I promise you if you hang out, that will make sense. And also that line, caused one of the hardest last I think I've ever had on the show. As I remember that going through the Edit, I actually had to drop the volume way down because I was laughing so hard, I'm pretty sure there's a good chance that I won't my kids up. As they sit above me as I record these. I'm so excited to present this conversation to you. And so here we go. The man the myth, the legend. My friend Andrew parks.

Seth 3:31

Andrew Parks. Welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast! I'm happy that you're here, man. I always love talking with you. So how are you doing?

Andrew 3:39

I'm happy to be here. I'm doing great. I really am. And it's I'm excited to be here myself because I found you. I don't know like a year and a half ago. It's been a joy ever since.

Seth 3:52

So a bit of backstory. I don't know if I've ever told you this before or not. You were one of the first people that reached out you're like, Hey, can I call you like can we just. And I was like, sure, but then you and then a few others since then and still to this day, I talk probably at least monthly a couple times monthly with those same three people.

It's been really fun like, like, hey, praying for you, or Hey, how you been? Hey, I saw you looking for whatever it is. Yeah, I've really enjoyed getting to know you.

Andrew 4:19

Yeah, me too.

Seth 4:21

However, everybody listening hasn't had that privilege. So what do you want people to know about the man the myth, the legend that is Andrew Parks?

Andrew 4:36

I probably don't want them to know that I use all three of those titles for myself. No, well, I guess. I mean, that's such a big question. I mean, I'm just, I'm just a guy that really…really I've had a very interesting kind of upbringing and life like a lot of different episodes of my life that I've gone through that give me kind of a very weird perspective on life. And at least I think so. And I used to be really, really frustrated about that. I used to be really frustrated with all that juxtaposition in my life.

And I think that, who has become as someone that really appreciates that and wouldn't trade it for these ideas of someone else that I could have been? And so I guess, yeah, you know, maybe that's kind of who I am.

Seth 5:30

Yeah, well break that apart a bit. So just maybe, maybe we drill into maybe last five to 10 years, like, what is that change been? What's kind of that shift?

Andrew 5:41

So I'll give like a real quick, like two second backstory. I grew up in a very conservative Christian home, charismatic, was raised, kind of like Oral Roberts tradition, Open Bible churches, vineyard churches, those kinds of churches, and whenever I was around 11 parents split up. And when they split up, my conservative Christian home, became only my mother's house. And my dad came out of the closet to me a couple years after the fact, and that presented my adolescence with two very different perspectives of looking at the world.

And, you know, as a kid, you don't really know what grieving is or how to do it. And so you try to cling to these different people you thought you were going to become before everything changed. And that's what I meant earlier about juxtaposition. But in clinging to those things in the tension of that of that frustration, it I really think added to me It gave me nuance. I was a very black and white, this is how things are kind of person. And so in the last like I'd say, I go five years. I really clung for a lot of my life to like very conservative Christian values, kind of the classic evangelical conservatism with a very fearful Pentecostal flavor like “you make one wrong mistake, you're going to held an atlas you rededicate your life!” (In a traditional southern accent)

Seth 7:14

(While laughing) Why is it got to be Southern?

Andrew 7:16

Well, well, you know, I was raised in a certain part of Missouri. And I mean, we could do it like this, you know, just don't you know, up here, you know you just gotta stop sinning now. (In Canadian accent)

Both 7:29

More laughter…like a lot of laughter.

Andrew 7:34

But…ahh..regardless of the accent, there was a lot of like, dangling of hell and punishment and consequence. And so like when I discovered eternal security, as like a doctrine that other conservatives had, I thought they were heretics. It was, you know, I was like, if it doesn't smell like fear, I don't even think it's what I was supposed to be interested in.

And so in the last like, five years, I returned to school after a hiatus for several years, and I graduated from school about five years ago. And my college experience was an incredible experience. I honestly felt like I had the Midas touch even when I made like huge mistakes. I would get forgiven quickly, and will be given more resources and more influence and more opportunities. And it was very strange because a lot of people had very non-positive, like Christian College experiences around me. And so after leaving college, it was kind of like, I left a bubble. And the thing was, I actually really felt that God told me that that bubble was going to burst before I left.

I have it in my journal where I was in worship with some friends of mine the last semester I was in college and God gave me this whole word and tied it together with like, the story of Joshua and Caleb and all these things. And I thought it was like a word for me and a bunch of my friends. And I shared it that way. But then later God was like, you know, that was more for you. And the gist of what God told me that day was, are you okay with going into the wilderness where the only thing you have is me? Are you okay with leaving everything behind, leaving every blessing behind, every other thing and am I enough for you? And I didn't really get that at the time. And so whenever I left college and the bubble burst, I became very depressed and confused, and I clung to anything that gave me even like a semblance of that former feeling of like success and favor and ease. And so I won't get into the gritty details just to respect people. But I followed someone. I made a lot of decisions, not just in relationships, but personally that were not necessarily the healthiest. I didn't know what I was really doing or I didn't want to know what I was doing to be honest; and alongside that I went through several years of very intense suffering, like went through a lot of interpersonal stuff in my immediate family that was really, really tough. I had three separate family members die, all within less than a year of each other.

So had my first grandma passed away. Eight months later, my second grandma passed away. Seven months after that, eight months after that, my aunt passed away. And two of those three deaths were very sudden and unexpected. And on top of that, I was wrestling with a lot of other stuff I was going through just very painful time. And in that time, about two, yeah, about two years ago, a little over two years ago, actually, I kind of just said, “f you” to my entire Christian upbringing. I was like, why am I trying to do something that isn't working for me?

Because I felt like I had bought in I had done all the things you're supposed to do. And I'm like, okay, I've even like gone through hard stuff before, like, where's all of the reward? Where's all of the thing? And if it's not working, why am I trying not to be who I want to be? You know, why am I putting on this false self if I'm not getting anything for it, and something happened that was kind of like the cherry on the sundae of suffering and I just said F it!, and became very suicidal became very just I just lost a lot of stuff, basically.

But that moment like going into that was so good for me because it allowed me to be honest with God in a way that I've never let myself be honest with God. And for me, I can say it like very easily in this like, I was playing public relations for God to myself. Instead of being like, I don't like that. Why is this true and questioning God? And it was so funny too, because the my heroes in the scriptures were always these people that did question God like Abraham, Moses argued with God and “changed his mind”. And I love those stories. And yet I always told the party line. Yeah. And so when I started getting honest, a lot of stuff happened that I won't get into. But something something very divine and very powerful happened to me. That was the confluence of events. And through that I experienced, like massive healing of my own emotional issues that I wrestled with for over 17 years.

Seth 12:30

I love that.

Andrew 12:31

Yeah, to this day, and I'm still like, “why am I not on medication?” And that was such a blessing for me. It really really was. I hesitate to go into that just because….

Seth 12:44

I want to restate something that I heard you in further and I want to make sure I'm not miss want to make sure I'm not reading something that I think into what you said. so sure. It would it be fair to say when you are able to basically just say “f you” I'm not afraid whatever this evangelical God is anymore, I now have permission to be mad if I want to be mad to be sad if I want to be said, to yell at cuss at, but actually talk with God as opposed to just cowering and fear. That is the grace of I'm not a, you know, I get to go to heaven now, but not afraid anymore. Am I inferring too much there?

Andrew 13:23

Um, you're inferring where I ended up? In the moment of that it was more of a, I don't care what you're going to do to me. Okay. And it was kind of just like, there was a point where I literally asked God that could you make me stop believing in you? Which is so ironic. I know.

Seth 13:42

Well, what was the what was the college just curious?

Andrew 13:46

I went to Evangel University in Springfield, Missouri. I'm not one of the Assemblies of God colleges. I was raised in the AG as well.

Seth 13:54

Yeah, I totally get the bubble. I had a similar bubble bursting experience after I left Liberty, which is funny, because for parts of my background Liberty was more “liberal” then some of my family is.

Andrew 14:13

Oh, that's very interesting. Liberty was liberal.

Seth 14:19

Well, more liberal not necessarily liberal.

Andrew 14:20

Yeah, the comparison just strikes fear into my heart for you.

Seth 14:23

Yeah. Um, lets not that would be hearing a lot of family laundry that I don't know that I'm prepared to do.

Seth 14:50

Yeah, so when we started talking back and forth about having you on, you brought up a concept of mysticism, and then we just rolled from there; and then I left a rambling voicemail and so I don't quite remember exactly what I said, but I know I started with this. When you say the word mysticism, what actually does that mean? Like, what are you talking about when you say, like, the concept of mysticism, and then kind of how it relates to, I guess, the Christian faith, but really faith in general?

Andrew 15:18

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question, and that really sparked some stuff in me. There's a lot of like, as you know, there's a lot of definitions for mysticism. And you and I've talked actually about mysticism several times on the phone in the last year. I remember one such conversation that was really, really powerful for me. And so I think it's important (and) that's why I like the question, because I think it's important for everyone to define mysticism for themselves. Because I think even the nature of mysticism demands that because, to me, mysticism is best boiled down to practicing mystery, for me.

And that can mean a lot of different things like so for me, I was raised in very charismatic spiritual gifts, baptism of the Holy Spirit style churches, I had that classic traditional baptism, the Holy Spirit experience when I was like 10 or 11 years old, around the same time that my parents like divorced and my life fell apart, and all this stuff. It was very, very interesting how it all kind of came together. But for me, I was introduced to mystical practice and experience in an ecstatic fashion, which is what a lot of like charismatic churches are, it's a lot of noise and a lot of moving, and a lot of just very wild experiences happening. There are contemplative quieter, like zones within that, but stuff I grew up with was very demonstrative.

And so for me, I think that's actually part of why I really connect to performance, because I like to act and I like to write and I like to do artistic stuff, but I like to share it. And I think part of that does actually play into that where the demonstration is a part of the validation of the experience. But when I say practicing mystery, that, that that gives an openness to so many other things that even like myself, I discovered. Like for so long because of my conservative upbringing, anyone even said the word meditation I was like, you're a witch, you know, or whatever.

And then when I suddenly started practicing meditation, and it was blessing me, I was like, “Oh”! I realized I could include it in everything I was already doing, and that, you know, stuff like that. That's realizing and practicing mystery because to me, the mystery was a practice that I was told growing up is not Christian and never Christian. But then I experienced Christ through it. And I'm like, oh, maybe, maybe there's something I don't know.

Seth 17:54

Yeah.

Andrew 17:55

So it's…it's you could also say, it's embracing the experience of not knowing at the same time as well.

Seth 18:02

So I'm not in the, the streams of the Assembly of God, any of that; the streams that I am in our sit still sit quiet. If you get up It better be to go to the bathroom like you don't. You're lucky we let your kids talk, although the ministers that I'm friends with and the minister that I go to church with, he’s literally Please keep your kids like I love to hear them bickering in the back row because I need them here to participate. And it matters that they're here please don't silo them off in the nursery unless there's a good reason like needs to be please keep them here.

They are just as much a part of this body as everyone else so don't don't feel like they're distracting me because I got this sermon memorize like for for fine, I've got you.

So how does the concept of mysticism kind of plug into that because for the streams that I was in, it doesn't like it's…it's too rigid to really embrace it. So for me, I agree with you mysticism is really important. But for me, like even something as simple as the Examen is mystical for me because…

Andrew 19:12

Oh it is!

Seth 19:14

because it's entirely foreign. So what does that look like for someone coming out of the streams that you have come out of?

Andrew 19:17

Well, you know, in all of my searching through other streams of our faith tradition, I always find myself coming back to like a nondenominational charismatic experience. That's just where I fit, partially because I was raised in it. And also partially because for me, I think that healthy charismatic Christianity does give room for mysterious things. Because they allow you to reinterpret scripture in the moment because it feels prophetic. And God is breathing on it to use some of the language and so it's like this is for now or this is for me!

And to me, that's a very, very healthy approach because In that approach, you actually experience your identity as a child of God instead of as a servant. Like, I think of like Galatians 3. And I think that mystery is realizing that everything that God has put before you is a potential tableau, of the secrets of his heart that he wants to share with you. And if you begin to idolize something to the point that if it looks different than what you expect, you can't engage with it. You're cutting yourself off from experiencing a piece of God that you couldn't have experienced before.

And for me coming out of it, it was really just being instead of me, like saying, that's not okay, or that's not good, or that's not approved or appropriate, in this spiritual journey I'm on instead of reacting against it…the posture is stillness. I only think that from a place of stillness can you really experience mystery. Because to experience something, you have to look at it as a job actively as possible. And we are fed narratives from the time that were born basically, about how things are supposed to be. And we need to realize that those narratives are just rough drafts, that we can edit the story that we want to tell. And so to me mysticism is, in a sense, practicing that editorial right that we have as children of God, as being people that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom too.

Seth 21:37

I can't remember when I read it, or where I read it and I'm hoping I'm not getting this person wrong. It might be if I remember right it's the Evagrius Ponticus was a Christian mystic. And I feel like I read. It's in the book right over there. This is going to annoy me. I know I'm saying his name wrong, because I think I'm spelling it wrong in my head. Basically, he described Christian mystics as somebody that's pursuing, like a three-fold path of elimination, unification and purification of both our soul, our spirit, and our body, which really works well when you're supposed to love the Lord your God with all your heart with all…it makes 100% sense. So what practices are you doing now that kind of fall into line with that? Because you referenced meditation? And would you call that spirit or would you call that mind? What would you call that when you're practicing? Like, how is that connecting you back to the divine? And then what are some of the other practices that you're doing? to kind of help you?

Andrew 22:41

Well, I don't exactly think that way with the stuff that I do practice because for me, categorization, a lot of times, this is for me personally, categorization of stuff like that kind of pulls me out of it; pulls me out of like, being present in whatever it is that I'm doing. And so like, for me, it's like the concept of everything is spiritual. So it's like, body / soul / spirit is all so intertwined. They're inseparable. And I would almost like to say, close to unrecognizable from each other, kind of like in a very Jewish approach to kind of reality. So that actually is a big way that I practice mysticism.

When I'm doing like a regular thing I am attempting, which that's not the right word, I am being as present as possible in that and I'm and I cultivate what you could just call openness, where I'm just like, God, if you want to say something in this, you want to speak to me in this, do it? You know, for example, I watched Westworld for the first time this past year…

Seth 23:48

Is that any good? It's on my list, but I've heard that it's either awful, or the best thing that you've ever watched. And I was like well, the fact that nobody's in the middle here really scares me because I don't want to lose those hours.

Andrew 24:02

I think you would absolutely love it as long as you can get past you know it's typical HBO fashion first couple episodes of that hot to trot, you know sexually violent, bit to get people hooked and then they like tease you with it for the rest of the show to keep you on the keep you on the line. As long as you can get past some of that gratuitous stuff, which there's really not a lot of gratuitous stuff in this one, which is why I like it so much. Westworld is honestly one of the best things I've ever watched. I love it.

But that's because, I say that because of how I watched it, I watched it as if it was a parable that could teach me something instead of just “entertaining me” I engaged with it. And that to me is what we can do with anything. And that's one of the biggest practices that I have is attempting to look at anything, anywhere, anytime and be like, what does this have to say about me about God about my relationship with God or relationship with others that kind of stuff is huge for me. The other way I'm a big music person and so he didn't I really actually like listening to ambient no lyrics stuff like anything really post rocky like my one of my favorite bands of all time is Hammock I listen to them all. And when I shout out to Hammock, they're fantastic. And it's all soundscapes and I will turn that stuff on and I will use that because music is so potent for me. I use that as kind of like a springboard.

So with the best way I can encourage anyone to practice mysticism is to find the thing that connects them to God, the quickest and the easiest. The thing where they're like, I'm feeling the divine, I'm experiencing God, whatever the closest thing to that is for you go there, and it doesn't matter; it doesn't have to be Christian approved. That's that's the thing that to me is very important. You have to have the flexibility to say, Man, whenever I have a bologna sandwich and a Diet Coke I feel God man! And if that's what works. Do that thing.

Seth 26:22

(Seth laughs uncontrollably for a time)

Andrew 26:25

I got him! I got him real good!

Seth 26:29

I had a question. And it really feels like a weird question after bologna sandwich from Diet Coke. Um, I hear that and I agree with it and I agree with music, music, like I…so for instance, so today we went to Richmond for a thing for family and we rode with my father in law, mostly because he knew where he was going. But also, we don't really spend a lot of time with them. He travels a lot for work and he offered and sure we'll all go together. It was good spent the whole day with, you know, her step mom and my father in law and her it was great. But as soon as we got it the car, the radio is immediately on. And she looks just like at me like…that was like he didn't have the radio on all day. Like I literally felt disconnected. It doesn't even matter what the music is. I literally felt disconnected like a heartbeat was missing. without some rhythm in the background. It didn't it didn't matter what it was.

I don't know it's…. I need it like music for me is is very powerful. Like I build playlists to read scripture to like I built a playlist for the show. And I don't know if anyone listens so good. I changed the order quite frequently with my moods, because I mostly have it for me. I like that other people, but it's mostly like exists. Every single one of those songs brings me back to whatever I was talking about with a guest at that time. almost instantaneously. Yeah. So I can shuffle things in my mind that way.

Andrew 27:52

Wait, so is there music going right now? Right now?

Seth 27:55

No, because I know it would be too hard to edit out.

Andrew 27:58

Okay. Oh, I don't know. You just had an ear in your ear earphones? No, I would

Seth 28:02

I would be doing this the whole time. Just Yeah, it would be too hard to edit out. Although often when I'm talking with people, I am writing down my emotions on a sheet that is literally here, on a sheet of paper with timestamps of how I was feeling as you were talking. So that as I edit and

Andrew 28:21

that is fantastic, welcome to Behind the Music with Seth Price

Seth 28:24

ha! That way I can try to match something like I'm like I heard. I felt that before. When was that? You That is such a good practice. That's

Andrew 28:35

That is such a good practice. That's great.

Seth 28:56

So if you're finding the thing that connects you to God, sometimes I think that can be helpful but how can that be like, is there a way to avoid that becoming unhealthy? Because depending on what that is, I can see that being an unhealthy practice. So how, what would you advise for people from what you've learned? Like, kind of, here's how you dip your toe in. But also, here's where you kind of learn that I can't go past the three foot mark. I haven't quite got past the dog pedal section of mysticism here. So how do we do this healthfully?

Andrew 29:24

Well, so the way that I define mysticism allows me to think that a lot of people are practicing mysticism, even when they're not, like in a classic sense, but I look at it I'm like, like, because one of the things that I love to blow my mind with is just thinking about the nature of existence. And I'll just, I'll just, I'll just be sitting there and be like, why is there something rather than nothing?

Seth 29:46

It's 42.

Andrew 29:48

Yes, exactly. Oh, praise me be to Douglas Adams.

So in that, I really believe like, why it's become so easy for me to learn to hold things loosely in my hand. Because when I look at the nature of reality, it doesn't make sense. Like, even with the most tight, like cosmology that you can derive from Scripture and theological texts and all these other things or whatever it still is like, why? Like there is a sense of absurdity to reality. And so, living and projecting meaning and engaging with reality is a mystical practice because you are doing it in a literal mystery that does have structure that has set boundaries. This isn't just some amorphous relative postmodern blob that we're all just hallucinating. There is something to this.

So I say that because I really believe that some people could take find the thing that connects you to God, and just do it as “Oh, I'm going to do the thing that I really want to do that I feel like I shouldn't do”. That's not what I'm saying. I really believe that like, at the base level, whoever you are, you kind of have a sense of what's good for you in this moment. Like you can say this is really good for me. And even whenever you're like not feeling it or whatever, it's kind of like the idea of like, you're a kid and you know, you should eat your vegetables, but you don't want to eat your vegetables. Like, you know, like, Okay, this actually is good for me, and so in that I really don't think there's a danger, unless your danger is to lose yourself.

And what I mean is, if you're trying to practice mystical disciplines, whether it's the examen, or meditation, or a Bologna and a Diet Coke, whatever it is, if you're trying to hide in it, if you're trying to escape from reality, that's not healthy. Like, too often, I get so esoteric and I lose myself toward the adage, don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good comes to pass for me. Now, the reality of that statement is if we're truly heavenly minded, we will be incredibly good for the earth. But we know what that you know, kind of connotates when it says that, yeah, and so you have to deal with your own crap. Like, whatever you've been through, whatever wounds you've suffered, whatever suffering you've experienced, it doesn't matter if you get a magnificent miracle of healing, you still need to look and see, is this affecting me? Have I agreed with this wound in some way that goes beyond the healing to where I'm going to live as if this is still true. And in doing that, that's basically just a fancy way of saying you need to process your grief, you need to heal from your wounds. So healthy mysticism is engaging with the God who heals you. Not engaging with the God who snuffs you out in some oblivious ecstatic experience. Yeah, those things happen. But those things aren't what it's about, it's about salvation. And salvation is full restoration of you and the created order around you.

Seth 33:02

I want to borrow some things. So you write every so often you're right. And I told you this before, you really should write more. But I'm going to borrow I have it pulled up. So I want to borrow from this and then I want to springboard a question off of it. Okay, now, I'm going to go ahead and tell you what the question is now. And then I'm going to read what you wrote. Because I feel like it's a it's a short question, but it's a huge one. So I really want to know, so we've said the word God, I don't know how many times tonight, but I want to frame so for Andrew. When I say God, this is what I mean. So that's the question I'm going to and I know it's a big question. And so I'm going to go ahead and give you that ahead of time. But the reason I asked is this, so you wrote on on your blog, and I don't know which blog post it is, um,

Andrew 33:54

It’s the only one right now.

Seth 34:00

Perfect, I did it.

Andrew 34:01

Laughter

Seth 34:04

So here's about midway through you say, you know,

singing to God has always been the easiest way for me to settle down and connect.

And then I'll skip a bit. And so you say

so while the music was playing that evening, I just stopped to listen to God's spoken is God's peaceful, quiet presence

and the theological things that you've been wrestling with, which we alluded to earlier in the episode, and you said, you know,

so I asked God, are these things I'm studying really describing you?

And then you go on to ask a few more questions. And then you said, He's basically say, Yeah,

I heard God say, Andrew, you know, me, am I like that?

And so I want to end at that, with that conversation. Like, when you say God now, like, What do you mean? Like, what is who is whom is whatever verbs you want to use, or pronouns. I don't know how grammar works what is that?

Andrew 34:57

Yeah, you're right. That's a big question….

Andrew 35:01

I think I'm gonna go somewhere with it that…okay, I'm gonna go there. Stay with me here, okay? Stay with me here.

God is me, and I am everyone else. And everyone else is an expression of that whom God loves, which is God's own son, who I'm one with.

And so for me God is the one who is closer than my own skin. God is the one who is there, no matter what is going on. God is the one who is seated at the deepest, most innermost parts of who I am. God is the one who has cleaned the inside of the cup and stays inside the cup to make sure the inside never gets dirty again. That's who God is for me.

And why I said, God is me at the beginning is because the journey of Jesus Christ that has transformed me and had actual fruit in my life, legitimate, personal change, all comes from place of God revealing that I'm his kid, and that I am of the same substance as He is. I've actually had an image in my mind that comes up almost every time I talk about God with people, you know, call it a picture or vision or whatever you want to call it. I see this big, gigantic oak tree, huge oak tree that just branches shoot out everywhere, all this stuff. And then I see a little oak tree sapling, like one of the branches go out and underneath where (an) acorn dropped. And God is like, I'm the oak tree and you're the sapling meaning that while I don't look exactly like I think God Looks, the substance of my being is the same substance of God's being and that is who God is to me.

Seth 37:10

Hmm, I'm gonna have to listen to that a few times. I like the answer. And so the reason I asked you is that I'm going to be asking that question to everybody that's episodes come out in 2020 because it was asked to me is a good question.

Andrew 37:24

It's a very, very good question. It's how you find out what someone's actually talking about. Right?

Seth 37:31

It was asked to me and I said, I was like, I. And so what? And then what happened was, it took me it took me along. I still don't quite if you asked me, I don't think I could answer the question, which I'm not afraid of at all.

Andrew 37:47

Oh, that's good. That's so good. Fear, can I real quick, say something about fear.

Seth 37:57

Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew 37:58

Fear is one of those things that when you see it, you can always say no to it. Because fear is not caution. Fear is not wisdom. Fear is fear and it deserves no voice in anyone's life. It's the remnants of our animal nature speaking to our bones, introducing sin into our flesh as Paul would put it. Fear is the means by which our body stays enslaved.

Seth 38:22

Hmm, absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree. I saw a quote from Mr. Rogers the other day.

Andrew 38:31

Wooo that man!

Seth 38:32

It said, and now I want to be real clear, I'm probably getting this wrong, because I briefly saw it as you know, you're scrolling through the things on Facebook, but I saw Mr. Rogers. And it wasn't Tom Hanks Rogers it was the legit Rogers. Not that I don't like Tom Hanks. He seems like a nice guy…

Andrew 38:43

They are sixth cousins man…they are sixth cousins…

Seth 38:45

Aren't we all?

Andrew 38:47

Yeah, there was like some dumb promotional story that came out.

Seth 38:50

Yeah. Why not? But it said basically, someone interviewed him and said, you know, how do we solve the problem of evil, which was basically the question and he's like,

well, evil can't thrive where there's forgiveness. So if you would just forgive people, their evil can't thrive, when you forgive, it's just not possible.

And I think I'm badly paraphrasing that and I have to find that again. Now that it's annoying me that I don't have it. So, but yeah, no, I love that. And I agree with fear.

Yeah, the best that I've come up with so far for God, the best words that I have for God or a metaphor that I can't quite voice yet. And that's the best answer that I have (so far).

Andrew 39:27

Did you say, God is a metaphor. I can't quite voice yet…

Seth 39:31

Can’t quite get it yet. I don't know what the words are. I don't have the words. I think that might be the point.

Andrew 39:37

That is one of the most so profound answers on God i think i've ever heard in my life.

Seth 39:43

Yeah, but it's just one sentence. I can't keep it, I have gotta flesh it out…

Andrew 39:46

Those are the better ones. They're like, they're like Zen koans that you have to unravel and look at figure out. That's what I like like tokens that you can swirl around in your fingers, you know.

Seth 39:59

So what’s next, Andrew. So we've referenced that you have a blog, but there's only one thing there. And so I'm going to use this as as as a juxtaposition to use a big used in a dime word when when it's late at night, we need Penny and nickel words, you used a big word. We used esoteric, we've used a bunch of big words here. So I'm gonna move on to evolved you towards that. So what is what is next for you? So I know, you talked in the past, you got a lot of ideas, a lot of plans of where you want to go. So what is next?

Andrew 40:30

Um, right now I am working on short stories. And so I was debating a lot about what I wanted to write for a while because I have like, several blogs like in process and I have like a partial book outline and like some different stuff like autobiographical stuff, some ideas for non-autobiographical stuff, but the thing that has really captured my attention a lot in the last year has been the story. And not the stories I grew up on a church that were so blatant like no one could miss them. Like, parables stories that you're like, what does that even mean? I like stories because stories can be a mirror. And I want to write really good stories. And so I'm working on that. And I don't know if those are going to be like released or if it's just going to be practice for the next thing, so that I can write a much bigger one. But that is there.

I also am hoping to launch my own podcast starting by February, I've got a meeting out of this week or next week with two other co hosts and get that going. working title right now for that is Dad's House. And the reason for that is because the my two other co-hosts are named Dylan and Dylan, and Devom, and I'm like, a DADs house. Father. Oh no, I like my father in heaven. I'm terrible, but then I realize I'm gonna have to try to explain that every episode and I'm like, I don't know if I really want to do that.

Seth 42:05

No, you don't you just explain it in the first episode. And then you'll know if people are actual, like, true. Hardcore, you know? Like, like, like, for instance, here we go. I don't know if you've ever watched Breaking Bad, or if anyone else has that is listening. But if I say, “say my name”, I don't need to tell you what that means. And I'm not going to because if I told you, it would ruin it, you have to earn it. You got to earn it.

Andrew 42:31

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's what's next. Thanks for for those good questions. That's one of the things I really like about your style is whether it's on the podcast or whether it's in person or on Facebook or Twitter or wherever you ask good questions. Aand good questions, produce good answers, you know, and half of getting to where you want to be is the question and I appreciate that.

Seth 43:01

Thank you so much for coming on Andrew. I've enjoyed it. We're gonna have to do it again!

Andrew 43:05

It’s a little bucket list, you know thing for me so it's real treat.

Seth Outro 43:30

I really liked the way that Andrew is looking for practices in everyday life. And I like that part that he said there were, whatever it is that you feel laser focuses you into the divine, whatever that is use that as a practice to talk with God. It doesn't have to be anything special. It just needs to be intentional doesn't; does not need to be special. It can be a Bologna and Diet Coke.

However; to be clear, I don't really like Bologna and I do not drink Coca Cola at all. But you understand where we're going. I am thankful for voices, and for friends, like Andrew, this was a blast to do. I’m also very thankful for the generosity and trust of Ryan Cox for the use of his music in this episode. You can find links in the show notes for everything Andrew’s up to as well as Ryan’s music and as always that will be added to the Spotify playlist for the show, which is also in the show notes. I cannot wait for this year to unfold. I am really excited to see what happens the conversations will have. I'm excited to dig into new things. I will talk with you next week.

Be blessed.