Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Alexander 0:00

As we move into the full light of Christmas Day, we come to the fourth gospel of Christmas, which is from the prologue of the Gospel of John. And again, like the Matthean Gospel, and now the John Gospel, neither of those are texts that we relate to the sweet story of a baby born in Bethlehem. But this final gospel of Christmas Day, remember, remember, remember, what happened at one moment in history is the truth that every moment in time. That this story that we know of Jesus being born in Bethlehem reveals to us that the Christ has been with people for all time, from the beginning of time, from before the beginning of time, across time, that this birth is Alpha and Omega within us in every age; and so that the importance of Christmas is not just the historical story. But it is that the historical story teaches us the truth of all time, not the truth at one moment in time.

Seth 1:23

Happy week of Christmas, everybody. I really hope that you've had a fantastic year, and that your holiday planning has been well, and that regardless of what country that you were are in, you and your family are blessed in this beautiful time of the year.

We're going to do the normal things before we start the episode. rate and review it really does matter. Recently, so I think a week and a half ago, the show was in the top I think 200 in the UK, which is amazing to me, there's a top 200 I'm sorry, of Christianity and or spirituality podcasts, which is amazing to me. And so please continue to rate, share, review, tell your friends, that just blows my mind. Yeah, I'm a loss for words, they're also same as last week, if you have a spare dollar, consider supporting the show on Patreon or on glow. Here's the method to that madness. Next year, I really want to try to host a live event somewhere, but I'm realizing how much that kind of cost as it stands now, I don't think this show makes enough through Patreon to do that, but I would love to do that the show makes a little bit of money, but mostly it does have enough to do that.

I would need to pay for either airfare or if it's somewhere local for me, I would need to pay for the room, and whatever guests that also has some costs associated with that. And so if that's something that you would like to see, and you don't already give, consider doing that. I would love to do it, but I'm going to need your help to do so, but I really look forward to possibly doing that. But as it stands now that plan is on hold without a little more support there. So definitely not a requirement. But if we want to make that happen, that's what has to happen.

So I'm so happy to have this chat. So you saw in the show notes for the Episode Notes or whatever the title is there on your however, you're listening to the show. And you will see that Alexander Shaia is back on the show. Alexander is one of my favorite people, I truly call him brother. And it is a treat every single time that I'm able to share time with him and pick his brain about religion, but also just outside of that it's just really a treat. And so, we're gonna talk about Christmas. There was also a section in here that we kind of talked about Santa Claus, now Alexander does a great job of a saying “timeout, you may want to pause it for a second and get situated“. And so just know that but you'll hear the warning in there. And yeah, I hope you love it. Merry Christmas, everyone. Here we go. Let's talk about Christmas with Alexander John Shaia.

Seth 4:19

Dr. Alexander Shaia, welcome back to the show. I'm excited to talk with you again, this is not hyperbole, you're one of my favorite people on the planet. I've grown to love our relationship over these past few years, but so glad to have you back on. I'm so glad to talk with you as well.

Alexander 4:35

Well, it said it's a delight and you know that I count you and I'm among my brothers. And I mean that very sincerely.

Seth 4:44

Thank you. What have you been up to the last time that we talked was like, March or something? And we talked about the cosmic Christ and radiance, which is one of my favorites. What have you been up to since then, in brief?

Alexander 4:56

Well, so I've been back and forth to the UK, and to Spain, and the States. And I'm having to eat some humble pies and very humble pie at this point because the 13 Days of Christmas book that I sincerely hoped would be out now is not. And it's languishing behind what's coming next, very shortly, which is a hardback edition of Heart and Mind. Because so many people have said to me, this book that I have is threadbare. And please, please do something that's a bit more permanent. So of course, I thought, well, we'll just make a hardback…no, no, we totally re-edited it. We've been working in this thing since July, and I thought it was a two week project and turned into what now five months? But we are almost to the end

Seth 5:48

Well, there's a lot in that book, though. So that's just to re-edit, it's a big book.

Alexander 5:53

It's a huge book. It's the legacy piece. Anyway, as soon as we can put that to bed. I can turn back to Christmas.

Seth 5:59

How close are you on the Christmas one?

Alexander 6:01

Well, I don't, I stopped even knowing anymore because they have a life of their own. I wish it was like a pregnancy which you could sort of say is nine months give or take a few weeks? I don't know. I hope I'm close but I don't know.

Seth 6:18

I'm excited for it. Yeah. I'm also excited for the hardbound. I'm going to buy myself another copy. I like hardback books. There's a special spot on the on the on the shelf over there for the hardback books.

So when did you get back?

Alexander 6:38

I've been back in the States about two weeks. And I am time adjusted. I am we're talking today I'm in Santa Fe. I'm looking out the door. Sadly for me, it's a rainy day. We were hoping it was going to be a little bit colder and much more snowy. But there's no place I want to be more than Santa Fe in December for me it just makes my heart sing I was coming up the mountain and then down the mountain from the airport and as soon as you crest with Colaba Hata Hill and you look out and you see the Santa Fe valley below you, it's like I my heart just burst with joy.

Seth 7:17

Well, there's something about coming home, or what you call it. Yeah, it's just something special.

Alexander 7:23

Yeah. Especially when you haven't seen it since August.

Seth 7:27

Yeah, well, for those that are listening to this edited version, we joked a bit about new only being home in the in the Patreon version of the show just a little bit ago, which I think that's true. I think you're gone more than you're in the States but it's good. I guess it's good.

Alexander 7:43

I am. There's some really exciting things happening in the UK, but we won't get into that. But I'm going to be back there for much of March.

Seth 7:51

I am excited to see because I know what you're alluding to. I'm excited to see where that goes and listen to it as well or read along with it or whatever, whatever, form that that takes.

So I wanted to talk to you about Christmas because I can remember distinctly, when we first set up to talk the first time, it was close to Lent, and you were like, you know, if we're going to talk about Easter, we have to talk about all the other stuff that comes with it. And I was like, timeout Yes, let's do that in a second one. And you're doing, or you have done in the past, and I know we've chatted a bit back and forth and when we talked on the phone last year when you got back from from Spain, or from the UK or from both a little bit about Christmas. And so I would love to rip that apart a bit with you if you're willing.

Alexander 8:35

I'm willing.

Both 8:37

So..,,laugher

Alexander 8:40

It's a huge topic and I've got a lot but it is rumbling around inside.

Seth 8:47

So it’s too long since I talked with Dominic Crossan about that. So I don't remember what all we talked about on the phone. I remember bits and pieces of it, but I don't want to focus on that I want to talk a bit about and I wrote down a few questions.

My first question is how and why do we, as Christians, celebrate Christmas on December 25? Like, because like, that's not always been the case. I think I remember hearing you were reading you say that, forget where I heard it or where I read it. But it hasn't. Well, I guess it's always been the case with the calendar. Is it broken apart? And there's a lot behind that. So that's where I'd like to start. How and why do we celebrate it on the 25th?

Alexander 9:24

All right, let's, this is an enormous question. And I want to, I mean, I'm trying to come back from the Camino. Which means when I'm on the Camino, this huge internal erasure happens, which is lovely. But I get back and it's like, oh, they are all these files. Where are they inside? Let's sort of walk our Christian community and our brothers and sisters back a bit. The Christian calendar is a nature calendar or you can say it's a cosmic calendar, or it's an eco-spiritual calendar. And what I mean by that is, whereas we have fallen into a literalization, thinking that we celebrate things on the calendar, because of a historical date that relates to the life of Jesus. That's really not how the calendar was created except for one piece, which is Easter. But let's talk about how the Christians story is a great story that goes across time and era. And because it goes across time and era, it has to go also across, larger than just only, a historical story.

So when the Christian year was created, it was created, because we believed in incarnation and we believed that nature is telling a story of Jesus the Christ. And the Gospels are telling the story of Jesus the Christ. And we want to use both of those realities to amplify the other. Because we want in our great feast, to have a literal, physical, sensation in our bodies, which goes along with the great deep truth, historical truth and spiritual truth, of the Gospel.

So, when we think of the birth of Jesus, Christianity says, “Okay, let's understand that that birth of Jesus is talking about a reality that happens every moment in us, especially when we're in a dark place in our lives; when we're in a night time experience”. That the depth of our nighttime experiences, is exactly where in my language the fresh radiance burst forth or is reborn.

So, when we come to saying, well, what day on the 365 day a year calendar tells the story of Radiance being reborn from a night time place? Well, for us, and remember that Christianity started as a northern hemisphere spirituality, for us in the Northern Hemisphere, that is this time in late December, around what we know in the nature cycle we call the winter solstice.

So let me just stop there. And I just, you know, Seth, jump in if you've got a question because your questions are going to be really close to the listeners questions. And I don't want to jump too far.

Seth 12:54

I do have a question. I heard you say that on a podcast I think from years ago and it may be an ignorant question just because of my lack of traveling to any hemisphere that doesn't the North does the way that you're framing Christmas does it matter if you are birthed out of a faith that predominantly is in the southern hemisphere, because like right now it's hot in Australia, or hot in Chili?

Alexander 13:16

Exactly and I lived between New Zealand and Australia for almost five years, and I've had the beautiful theological experience of Christmas in the southern hemisphere. And it, I mean, it's a beautiful experience, but it's Christmas standing on one leg, because it's not an incarnational experience in the Earth and in the sky. Christmas in the southern hemisphere, is very near the summer solstice. The days are at their Zenith. Sun's going down at 10:30 at night, people don't put up Christmas lights, because

Seth 14:00

You can't see them…

Alexander 14:01

Who's gonna go around and see Christmas lights at 11 o’clock at night? And most of the times Christmas is community gathered at the beach for a barbecue. And it's a beautiful celebration of a theological concept, of a theological reality. But it doesn't have the second leg, which we the northern hemisphere have, which to understand that the date on the calendar is telling us about a spiritual reality which is so important for us to always know.

Not just that there's a Christmas Day in the depths of the dark of December. But there's a Christmas Day waiting for us when we're in our deep nighttime experiences whatever day of the calendar that happens. That's telling the cosmic story, which is more than only the history cool stories located in Bethlehem at the end of the Mediterranean 2000 years ago.

Seth 15:07

Now the winter solstice. And honestly, I don't know that I knew this before I was helping my fifth grade son study for his standard of learning tests last year, so fourth grade, is I knew that it was a thing. I don't think I really realized that it was the darkest. And so I guess by proxy, maybe also cold this maybe not but definitely the darkest day of the year. What significance of the Solstice does that have to do with the birth of Christ or the Incarnation of Christ?

Alexander 15:33

Well, because we can, we can describe the winter solstice as the darkest day or it's the it's the 24 hour period with the least sunlight is the more accurate way to say that. Or it's the 24 hour period with the most hours and minutes of nighttime. And the word Solstice soul - stic means soul = son and stice=still, and then essence astronomically. The, to the naked eye at the Winter Solstice and at the summer solstice, the naked eye cannot perceive any change in the amount of light. So it is three days at the winter solstice, before you can begin, to the naked eye, you can perceive that light is growing again increasing again. And at the summer solstice, it's three days before you can begin to see that light is decreasing, the amount of time of light in the day is decreasing.

So you will know and I just looked at the calendar because I always have my community gathered here in Santa Fe on the night of the winter solstice and that this year, it's the night of December the 21st. And depending on the year, it could be December the 21st or December the 22nd. And of course, you’re going to say, well, that's not Christmas Day. And you're right! And here's tell that three day separation happened…

In the Julian calendar, which is the calendar at the time of Jesus and continuing until the 16th century, the Julian calendar was a calendar which only had 362 days a year on it. And as the millennia went on, not having those three days a year in the calendar, December had become the springtime. So Pope Gregory, the Roman Catholic Pope Gregory, decided to have a new calendar drawn up, that would have three more days in the year so it would go from 362 days to 365. And it would add what we know every fourth year as the Leap Day. So the calendar and the sun and our agricultural cycle would stay somewhat in balance with each other.

All right, well, having created a year which has got three more days at it, and astronomically, everything begins to slip so that the winter solstice now is no longer December the 25th, the traditional day of Christmas. And Christmas, for 1500 years, the date of Christmas was particularly chosen because it was the winter solstice. They are intrinsically linked together. But now Christmas Day, the traditional day is going to be the 25th and the solstice is going to be the 21st or the 22nd. What do we do? And this this span of three days affected everything on the Christian calendar in terms of all of our feasts. But the feast that it most impacted, because of our great love of Christmas, was what do we do with Christmas? What do we do with Christmas? What do we do with Christmas? How do we rectify? Do we move Christmas date back to the 21st or do we keep it on the 25th?

And there are long dusty tomes of argument about what to do. And eventually, we developed an answer that satisfied at least the Roman Church, and it would, just as a trivia note, in the United States, as a country did not change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar until the presidency of George Washington.

Seth 19:48

Really?

Alexander 19:49

Yeah, so George Washington has the shortest Presidency of any president who lived out his whole term

Seth 19:55

Because he shaved off days?

Alexander 19:59

Yeah.

Seth 19:58

Hmm. So the Gregorian Calendar in 14th century so 1300ish somewhere in that range…

Alexander 20:05

No, no 1500s.

Seth 20:07

1500s, I'm doing it backwards. Okay, and so just 200 years…how about that? I didn't know that yeah I'm question about the calendar. So if it's slipping…so this Christmas hasn't moved from December 25 but the weather of December 25 has moved…am I hearing that right?

Alexander 20:25

No, the solstice has moved to the 21st. Christmas has remained on the 25th.

Seth 20:33

Okay.

Alexander 20:34

And the church, Christianity was left with this dilemma about whether to change the date of Christmas, to keep it on the feast of the solstice, or to leave it on the traditional day. Now some almost 1500 years the traditional day being the 25th. And here's how they resolve the dilemma.

First of all, immediately, the theologians would say “Oh three days” and begin to think about what three days within our Christian story is. And we know that three days in the Hebrew Scriptures is the story of a journey. We know that Jonah was in the whale three days. But most importantly, we know that Jesus was in the tomb three days. And that on the third day was the resurrection.

So that was the first piece theologically that fit. But then there was another major piece remember, because Christianity wants to stand on two legs and one is historical, theological, and the other is what's going on in the Earth and sky? Well, because Christmas Day is now three days past the solstice on Christmas morning is the first time that the naked eye can perceive that the light of the sun is increasing.

And so Christianity could now fully rejoice in keeping the great feast on the 25th. Not only because of its tradition, but also because it seemed even more perfect now, that not only is it on the day, which is the longest night, but it's now on the day, which we can actually perceive in our bodies; with our eyes, light is increasing.

Seth 22:29

That's such a beautiful metaphor. I love that.

Alexander 22:32

And again, I please don't I mean, I know that there are people who say you're making Christianity, an Earth religion. That's not what I'm about. What I'm about is bringing this back to the reality that because of the incarnation, which is in the cosmos as well as in each one of us, that we want to tell an incarnational story that ends amplifies the historical story.

Seth 23:02

Hmm. So how did we get from that beautiful metaphor of let's mirror what Christ coming from the cosmos, in the cosmos, to the planet what that means to Christmas trees, Christmas lights, icicles, I would say oh well off because there's one in my front yard that my father-in-law dropped off during church, which really annoys me. But the kids love it. Like, how did we get from there to any of this stuff that we do now? And I don't want to say the materialization, like the consumerism aspect of it, because people lighting Christmas trees for a long time. Like, how did we get there?

Alexander 23:41

Well, they have over let's talk about I get so excited about the Christmas tree. And I get very animated and you can probably even catch a note of irritation, that some traditions are thinking that the Christmas tree isn’t Christian. What a bunch of bologna!

All right here it is. Christianity goes North of the Alps. As long as we, for the first three centuries of our tradition when we stayed in the Mediterranean basin, we stayed with our Jewish moon cycle. And we deviated very little from our Jewish calendar and from my calendar, which was really based on the moon as Judaism is. Because in the Mediterranean, the sun is not a dramatic change. It's nearer to the equator in the sun doesn't vary that much. We go north of the Alps, and we meet the Celtic world. And again, let's remember that the Celtic world in these days extended from Ireland to Turkey.

Seth 24:54

That's a lot of space.

Alexander 24:55

Ireland to Turkey but did not come South of the Alps. It's a That whole northern region of what we call Europe. And when I say the Celtic world, it's a world that has got all sorts of ethnic variations. But they all are organized around the Sun calendar and S U N calendar, where the winter solstice is a primary feast because for their growing cycle of the year, they need to be able to live until the spring time in the summer, which is going to produce the fruit and the fruits that they live off the rest of the year. So this moment in the winter time, which we now look at and say, “Well, we know what's going to automatically happen”. But that wasn't the mindset in these times.

The mindset in those times is that they had to participate spiritual practice to help or support or engender the sun's rebirth and coming back to them. Well, when Christianity went North of the Alps to this whole new cultural metaphor, they were very resistant to our understanding of God. Because we were largely a tradition, which celebrated the cycles of the moon. And so we did what his Christianity has always done when it's at its best. We said, we're going to translate our story into your metaphor, we're not going to give up the truth of our story. We're just going to tell it to you in a way that you can understand and appreciate and know it in your body.

So if you've got this great feast of the winter solstice, which you understand that you have to engage in spiritual practice to bring the light back. We know about the birth of an eternal light. And we also know that that birth depends upon our spiritual practice. And so we brought the great story, the story from our Gospel texts, and we integrated it with the Celtic world. And through that integration, we helped them understand something that they desperately needed. And I, there are people who, I love the Celtic world. There are a lot of people today who think that Christianity destroyed the Celtic world. Oh, no! We didn't destroy the Celtic world. What people don't understand is when Christianity meant the Celtic world, the Celtic world was at each other's throats. They were rife with tribalism and Christianity began to harmonize the tribes. And we didn't destroy their calendar. We said to them, we know the story of your calendar but in a deeper way, let us tell you the story of Jesus the Christ, through what you're already celebrating. And this is what is so powerful about Christianity when it's at its best. Is it doesn't say to somebody, your story is not true. It says no, we, we see something deeper in what you already know. We see a deeper love and what you already know. Let us share that with you.

Seth 29:00

Similar to what Paul did at the is it Areopagus? I don't know how to say that word in Greek, like where he shows up. He's like, can you got all these statues, but I'm talking about that one that you have to the unknown god like, let me tell you about Christ in a metaphor that you understand, in a story that you understand, because you're almost there. But there's a little bit more…

Alexander 29:16

Yes, yes! I mean, I love this image that I would really invite Christianity today, invite individual Christians and traditions to recapture. And, and I'm very fortunate to live here in the US Southwest in a place in Northern New Mexico, where when the first missionaries came here, they said to the Native Americans here, let us tell you a deeper story that you are already know.

And this is the only place and all of the Americas where the ritual systems of indigenous people was not destroyed. North Central and South America here in northern New Mexico is the only place where the missionaries came and and built a chapel next to the Kiva and did not destroy the Kiva. But found a way for chapel and Kiva to work together.

Seth 30:19

Can you talk more about that? Because I think if I transplanted my family out of Central Virginia and put them there, like what would…what would what would stretch me in that framework?

Alexander 30:30

Christmas morning in in Pueblos, here. You're going to have the village in the Catholic Church before dawn for Christmas Dawn Mass. But at the conclusion of mass or actually right before, right after communion. men and boys who had been in the Kiva all night preparing themselves to do the ritual dances of the animal spirit that the shaman has determined will help the regeneration of the tribe or the people for that year. They come up out of the Kiva. They come into the church, and they lead the community from the church out to the dancing grounds, where they're going to dance a number of times, from dawn until dusk.

And so there you see it. It's this beautiful, in the Kiva. They've been preparing the spiritual practice that the people need for their regeneration of radiance, if you can say it that way. And the remainder of the Pueblo is in the church also praying at the feast about the regeneration of radiance. And the two metaphors work together rather than compete against each other.

Seth 31:57

Another question that I have and there may not be a good answer to be I haven't heard you speak on it before. So maybe I'm just really stretching it too far. But when I think about this story of Christmas, so like in Matthew, you know, we have the story of so many women that are in a genealogy of men and all those women are of ill repute or stories that you wouldn't necessarily see elevated, especially in today's day and age. But then if we're taking that metaphor, as well, of you know, three days and then right after that it's the voice of the females that are proclaiming like in you know, in Luke, you got the Magnificat it’s always the voice of the female. And so, as we're moving the church at North of the Alps and reframing things with some of the Celtic traditions, how has the feminine voice impacted the way that that changed? Like was there a feminine…or was it just straight co-opting and no feminine, and there's nothing because everything else, at least in my mind, seems to really be framed with the voice of the feminine leading that way. If that makes any sense?

Alexander 32:59

It is Seth, and I am happy to move into that question. Do we want to save the question about the tree for a little bit later in the podcast?

Seth 33:07

No, we can answer it now. Just that popped in my head and I didn't write it down. I was afraid to lose it, was afraid to lose the question.

Alexander 33:14

So make a note to yourself so that we get back to it. So Christianity, and actually I think this answer is going to lead the two together perfect. So Christianity, comes to the Celtic world and the Celtic world at the winter solstice is celebrating a 13 day festival of the winter solstice.

The first day of the festival is the winter solstice day followed by another 12 days of the winter solstice festival. And the winter solstice festival is dedicated to the mother because the winter solstice is about the birth of radiance. So every day of the 13 days of the winter solstice festival is an aspect of the feminine which is brought forward and celebrated in honor of quote unquote, the goddess.

Seth 34:15

That’s wheee the 13 days come from? Hmm, I’ve always wondered that..

Alexander 34:20

Yep, and Christianity continued the 13 day festival, but we sort of, I think we were embarrassed, I believe about 13 days. And so what we did is we made Christmas Day-Christmas Day-followed by the 12 Days of Christmas, still having the 13 day festival. Alright, but this day before the winter solstice. Most of the Celtic variations, most of them, not all, but most of them are going out on the day before the winter solstice. And they're decorating the sacred tree which in these ancient days was the oak tree.

And there was one oak tree which was the sacred tree of the village. And the reason that the oak tree was the sacred tree was because their belief was it may be legend, it may be fact, but their belief was is that they were able to harness fire because the oak draws lightings and it would strike the tree and a branch would burn, and they would break the burning branch from the tree. And they would harness fire.

So on this day before the winter solstice, because they saw a fire as a compliment to the radiance of the sun. They wanted to honor the tree that gave them fire as they prayed that the sun would come back to them. And they would decorate the tree by placing in it dried apples and pears and fruits from harvest. And they would celebrate the oak tree in its barrenness on this day because in its barrenness they knew that it was starting the new cycle of growth.

Well, Christianity comes and it sees this ritual and it goes again, because we're going to take their story and say, but we know something deeper in exactly what you're doing. Well, we see the sacred tree decorated with fruits. And we say, Ah, you're celebrating the truth of the Garden of Eden and the sacred tree that stands in the center of that garden. And we know in our story, That the birth of Jesus the Christ and his life and his death and his resurrection, reopens the garden to all people. So therefore, what do we do? We make the 24th of December, because the 24th of December was the day before the winter solstice of the old calendar, we make that day the feast of Adam and Eve.

Seth 37:25

What What is that? I've never heard of that. Is that why we call it Christmas Eve, did we just drop the Adam?

Alexander 37:31

Well, no, I mean, we've made the 24th the feast of Adam and Eve because that was the day that Christians decorated the sacred tree, either in the church or outside the church, remembering that this tree was going to be an expression of the wonder and awe that all people are now readmitted to the Garden of Eden. And, I mean, I just got yesterday, from my nephew, this image that he sent me a picture of a little great nephew and my little great niece are three and two years old. And they just put up the Christmas tree in their living room and he sent me this picture of their two faces. That's exactly the expression, not of something which is not Christian. But it's the expression that the fact that that wondering awe that you see on their faces looking up at that huge tree with 1000 lights on it is an expression of what Jesus the Christ does for each one of us, bringing us alive again I’m wonder and awe.

Seth 38:40

I like that…

Alexander 38:31

And in that, and in that way, the 24th of December was the feast of Adam and Eve, I remember growing up in my family, being very Lebanese days and tied to the old traditions that I would go to bed on the night of December the 24 and the house was decorated; and I would get up on Christmas morning the tree would be there and the lights there…

Seth 39:04

Oh my, how stressful!

Alexander 39:08

Yeah! Now I think back to my parents as they would close the store at five o'clock got us to bed and then stayed up all night decorating now. But to me Christmas morning was not gift to me Christmas morning was coming down and seeing that tree lit?

Seth 39:27

I like that. And again, I may be pushing this too far. And then I want to get back to that feminine question. When I hear harnessing fire, for some reason, I automatically go, because I'm staying in that metaphor of Christ to Pentecost, even though we're not there yet, like fire but maybe I'm…maybe I'm making connections that don't belong.

I'm jumping back to that feminine question I asked you earlier. And so it through the magic of editing. I'm going to take that whole question. I'm going to put it right here. And I said that out loud so that I can have some timestamps for myself, what is the the voice of the feminine? How has that impacted the way that we like we do Christmas now, today and I guess not even just in America but overall? Because, you know you you touch on multiple continents as you travel you see multiple traditions you talk with multiple people. So in your view like that voice of that we shouldn't talk about this feminine, the voice of the female like how is that reframed Christmas for right now?

Alexander 40:32

Let's go back to a shorthand that we are using that we've truncated and our truncating of it, in our shortening of it, we actually changed the meaning; and the word is “evening” or even the name Christmas Eve. Evening is for Eve, for the mother. And the reason that evening is for the mother is because evening is when we return to night time and night time for us, in our Judaism and in our Christianity is the night time because we are inside God's womb from which we will be reborn again.

So, in the spiritual tradition, Christmas Eve doesn't start until nightfall on the 24 it's not the day before Christmas. It's the beginning of Christmas, the evening of Christmas and every evening as we journey through it will come to the dawn in the morning. And so every 24 hour period from sunset evening to dawn in to morning is telling us this journey that we make in our lives over and over and over again.

We go into the night time of God and from the nighttime of God, we are reborn. We go into the darkness of God and from the darkness of God every day we are reborn. And that's why Advent was intended to be the dark time, this time in November/December, where there's very little sunlight or the least sunlight. Because this is the “evening” of the year from which the New Sun from this nighttime will be reborn. And all of it is just a metaphor for us to learn. That what happens in outer nature is also teaching us about what happens in our inner self.

And that as Christians we come to know beyond hope, we come to a place my experience is we come to a place where you e know that every night time will, by faith, become a dawn and I know that in the outer world and I can also come to know that in my inner world.

So the feast is not there to say that on Christmas morning I should feel a certain way, but rather that this feast is teaching me the spiritual practice for the second day of July when some terrible thing befalls meaning I have fallen into a nighttime experience.

Seth 43:41

The the material winter, the material deadness that leads to the gestation for I think you used the word radiance earlier, but then also that spiritual one, which for those that are listening mirrors really well with the first two chapters of your Heart and Mind book of what do we how do we see God in this but I do not want to dive back into this but it does mirror so well.

Another sacred cow that I wanted to ask you about concerned to Christmas. So St. Nicholas, does that bear any religious significance to the actual St Nicholas or is that just something that we made fancy because we felt like it because we needed something like Elf on the Shelf like let's make a thing and let's do this and now I have to hide this elf every year. again I let you know this is

Alexander 44:34

Again, I you know, you just have to peel the layers but again, Christianity comes to a culture [and] sees their personifications and their stories and say we know that story deeper. Alright, so let's peel back the story of St. Nicholas.

Well, first of all, let me tell the story of St. Nicholas and then we're going to tell the story of something from the Celtic world that we interpreted through the lens of St. Nicholas. St. Nicholas was a bishop in Turkey, the Turkish city of Myra on the Mediterranean, and Nicholas as a child, he was born into an über wealthy family. His parents died I don't know if they were killed but his parents died when he was a young boy and left him as an orphan but also left with a tremendous wealth to support him through his life.

At some point in his teens, Nicholas becomes a priest. And then at the age of 18, Nicholas is elected Bishop of the city of Myra.

Seth 45:56

That’s so young,

Alexander 45:59

Well we have to remember, I'd like to remind all of us, that the lifespan in those days was very short. You know, we have to reinterpret all of this image of Jesus dying this young man…no , the life expectancy of a man in Palestine in the first century, was 40 at the latest. So when he's dying somewhere between 33 and 35, he's dying as an old man. Yeah. Likewise, Nicholas becoming Bishop at 18 is probably something like 45 or 50 for us today.

But what Nicholas does is, becoming Bishop, he sees the poverty of his people. And he begins to secretly giveaway his wealth. The story is, is that by the time Nicholas died, he was penniless. But one of the things that he's most known for is that in these days, people oftentimes had to sell their daughters into slavery because they couldn't afford a dowry. And what Nicholas began to do was, at hearing upon a daughter who was reaching that age, he would go and he would leave a sum of money for that daughter in her shoes at the front door.

Seth 47:22

What an awful thing, but what amazing blessing but I can't imagine,

Alexander 47:26

So Nicholas is the saint of incredible generosity. Now, let's take that story and let's go to the Celtic world and the Celtic world and this time leading up to the winter solstice they're very concerned about how they are going to live until the springtime because unless those who are ill and widowed and sick have support and the generosity of others, they may not make it to the new planting. And they've got practices around the winter solstice, which are practices of generosity and encouraging generosity. But their ritual is that they are praying and entreating for this figure that they called the “Green Man” to come back to Earth now I want to stop right here because if anybody is listening to this and they have children within earshot you might just click pause. This is probably a good time to put your headphones on.

Seth 48:54

To be clear. When I asked the question, I was in the back of my mind figuring out, because I know my kids, both of my children that have the ability to listen. In the back of my mind. I was thinking, How can I flag this in iTunes to make this abundantly clear? So I'm glad that you've got a caveat in there.

Alexander 49:43

So the Green Man in the Celtic world, and there are lots of variations on this and I'm oversimplifying it to get across the message, but in essence, the Green Man is this figure he's dressed in the dark Green of the forest and it is believed that he leaves the earth at the summer solstice. And he goes to the North Star where he lives. And that, in the days leading up to the winter solstice, the people are creating bonfires. And they're creating these wood, these wood pile fires made of sacred wood, which was largely the oak tree as an offering to the Green Man to come back into the fire and down into the Earth, and to regenerate their hearts in generosity. So that as the sun comes back, they too might give more of themselves. So that their village can, all the people of their village, can live until the springtime. Right now notice that the Green Man is coming back down into the fire. And where does Santa into the house?

Seth 51:17

Yeah, yes at the fireplace,

Alexander 51:19

Right. And the total of the Green Man in a lot of the northern climates is which animal?

Seth 51:28

No idea.

Alexander 51:30

The reindeer.

Seth 51:32

Oh, okay. [how did I miss this—editors note*]

Alexander 51:33

So we've got North Star becomes North Pole. These huge bonfires become the hearts than our home. And the animal of transportation, who supports the Green Man and brings them to us is the reindeer. So, Christianity sees this great story of the Green Man who comes to help us regenerate in generosity, and goes, ”Oh, we've got this saint, we've got this great Bishop from the third century, who gave everything of himself so that others could live”. So we take the core story of the Green Man and we add to it or we see something deeper. And we understand the story of Nicholas, but we don't understand Nicholas as Nicholas alone. But we understand Nicholas as a person moved by the grace of Jesus the Christ to live for others. And we also and we also understand that this is not just a mythical practice in that way. But that we're being inspired to actually live this out.

Seth 52:58

I mean, well, that is the gospel, that's what you're supposed to do as a Christian like that's, that's quite literally the call. While you were talking, I googled the Green Man just because I wanted to put a face to what you were saying. And I've seen that picture on a handful of churches, like when you look through like famous churches, and if memory serves one of those if memory serves, one of those is called like St. Nicholas, something something church like or Nicholas Chapel church or something like that. I'm I have to look more into that. But I feel like I've seen that on a church that also bears the name after that saint, I feel like I have.

Alexander 53:35

So Seth, St. Nicholas is the most popular saint of the first thousand years of Christendom.

Seth 53:44

Because of what he did?

Alexander 53:46

Because of what he did. And because of this, the this tremendous inspiration. His life was in his heart was to the first thousand years of Christianity and then what happens? He gets supplanted by another figure. For the second thousand years of Christianity, can you guess who that is?

Seth 54:05

The next thousand years after…uhhSt. Patrick? I’m making this up as I go…

Alexander 54:11

No, St. Francis.

Seth 54:12

Oh, yeah, yes, yes.

Alexander 54:15

And they're very similar. Both of them are very similar. Francis born from a wealthy family who gives everything to be a follower of the Christ and to help rebuild community and spiritual practice and respecting creation, etc, etc. So it's just amazing to me how in Christianity, as one story in some ways, gets old and sort of loses some of its luminosity that another saint story comes to inspire us.

Seth 54:52

So how does this framing and this again for those listening, you can just search out on on Alexander's website. He's still about Christmas before, in in more depth on certain aspects of this, and there's just not enough…we'd have to talk for, I don't know, days to work through it, or, or I could just read your book, but you'd have to finish the first and that would require you to not have the time to talk to me. So I will be selfish and say, I'm fine with that for now.

How does this relate to so all the work that you do is, you know, the fordpass, you know, so, you know, Jesus through each of the Gospels. So how do we, in that mindset kind of frame, you know, Christmas through a lens of Matthew, Christmas through the lens of Mark through John, and through Luke?

Alexander 55:37

Okay, so I don't know whether it's the exact answer to you. But what I would like to do is I'd like to, to recapture that some of the Christian churches, particularly some of the more high Christian ritual, churches, have four Gospels of Christmas that they tell in a sequence and that the sequence These four stories is told that a particular time of night or day because that particular time of the night or day matches what the story is about in us.

So there's not one gospel of Christmas there's for that form a greater story, they form a sequence and so on Christmas evening, which again is after nightfall on the 24th of December on Christmas evening, the first Gospel of Christmas is reading the genealogy from the Gospel of Matthew. Every presiders horror is not only to pronounce all those things, but to try to preach on that at Christmas. But the story is this and why it's the Christmas gospel is because that genealogy is about people who were in a nighttime experience in their life. They kept themselves away from full despair and by the grace of God, and their work to stay faithful to the message, they endured through the night to a new dawn.

And just one story in there, Tamar, who's the daughter-in-law of Judah. Her husband has been killed, Judah’s son, her husband has been killed. She is a young woman without child, without husband and a he's now looking at a life of destitution she pleads with Judah, that he will bring his third son to her to marry. Judah seems to say yes, but isn't doing it.

She takes matters into her own action and prays before God, that God will lead Judah to come and lie with her as she is standing with the virgins outside of the temple; which is the practice in those days that a man lies with a woman outside the temple is part of the prayer. Judah comes but before they lie together, she asked Judah for his ring, and he gives it to her. And sure enough, a few months later where the text says she begins to show to to gives the execution demand, because it's his right to have her executed for bringing shame upon the family by going against his orders.

But she doesn't dispute the sin. She just asked me with him before she's killed, and she produces the ring. And she stays in the line of Abraham and the line that we consider the line of the Messiah.

But why is this A Christmas Story when it has no direct bearing on what we're going to hear about happening in Bethlehem that night? Because Christmas is about the cosmic inner reality, that grace happens, it bursts forth and outs from the deepest dark.

Alright. So, as soon as we've gone into the dark of Christmas night, remember Christmas night is before Christmas morning. As soon as we've gone into the night of Christmas, we hear the genealogy of Matthew, later in the night is the second gospel of Christmas, which is from Luke, which is the angel coming to the shepherds. And we have to remember that in those days first century shepherds are not very nice guys. They've done something and they have been ostracized from the village, they've been made to do the work that nobody else will do, which is to take care of sheep so that they will smell like sheep so that if they come into the village, somebody can smell them a block away, which is better than a bell around their neck. They are to be avoided.

It is to those people deep in the night that the announcement of the birth comes. And the lesson to us with the second gospel of Christmas is; this birth…don't look for this birth in your virtue, look for this birth in your need. Look for this birth, in the place of your woundedness, look for the birth in the place where in some ways you feel half starved.

The gospel at that part of the night is just the announcement. And then at dawn, we have the third gospel of Christmas, which is we pick up the story from Luke about “and the shepherd's came and they saw“; that The night in the darkness, that you heard the promise. But now they have made the journey to dawn. They've made the journey to an outer dawn. But now we in church at that moment where night turns today, we also understand that if we make the journey in our lives, whenever that happens, that somewhere or nighttime will again become dawn. That we to like the shepherd will see and not just simply believe, but know.

Now, as we move into the full light of Christmas Day, we come to the fourth gospel of Christmas, which is from the prologue of the Gospel of John. And again, like the Matthean gospel, and now the John gospel, neither of those are texts that we relate to the sweet story of a baby born in Bethlehem. But this final gospel of Christmas Day, remember, remember, remember, what happened at one moment in history is the truth that every moment in time! That this story that we know of Jesus being born in Bethlehem reveals to us that the Christ has been with people for all time, from the beginning of time, from before the beginning of time, across time, that this birth is Alpha and Omega within us in every age! And so the importance of Christmas is not just the historical story, but it's that the historical story teaches us the truth of all time, not the truth of one moment in time.

Seth 1:02:50

There's two births. There was a birth then. And it's the same birth now.

Alexander 1:02:54

Yes!

Seth 1:02:57

One that you couldn't bear witness to and one that you get too, and that you are bearing witness to today. I love that. I love that.

Alexander 1:03:06

You know and I, as a great uncle now and the chance to, to hold my great nephew and my great niece just a few hours from their being born and looking into their face. What does that do in your heart.

Seth 1:03:21

it it both breaks and mends you at the same time. I've said that a couple times to friends, like all of my kids, it breaks every part of you and mends it all back together all at the same time. But you're not quite the same father, or dad, or husband or you're not the same thing that you were 20 minutes before that happened. You're in an entirely different thing. And it's, it's both scary and frightening. But it's also something awesome. It's so awesome.

Alexander 1:03:51

My prayer at that moment is always that I could begin to see that same face in everyone else's face. It's hard, I just keep working at it haven't succeeded, but, but that's the promise.

Seth 1:04:07

Yes. Well, Alexander, I lose track of time when I talk to you, which is, I love that. I literally love that. But I want to give you back your early afternoon. And so in closing, where would you point people to, to engage in a more beautiful radiance to engage in some of the work that you're doing? Where would you send them?

Alexander 1:04:31

I would ask people please go to my website, and which is quadratos.com Q U A D R A T O S.com. And right there on the homepage are two beautiful films that are there just for you to click on and watch that have been created by the Work of the People about what we have just been talking about in this episode about the cosmic Christmas The historical Christmas and how they work together to enlighten us.

And then also on my website, you're going to find an interviews page where this podcast will be listed and a host of other podcasts. And the links are all there for you to click on and listen and, and if you would be so gracious, perhaps, go to the store and look at the things that we have items there for sale. But most importantly, we have the guides for forming a Heart and Mind community from my major work is the book Heart and Mind the Four Gospel Journey for Radical Transformation. And I really mean that word radical. I don't want to simply change ideas in your mind. I want this work to take you down into your heart and I want you to hopefully by grace, live a wider and more gracious life. I think that the I know from the groups around the world who have really taken this work that it's happening. And all of that is on the website.

And there's a list of that, especially coming up in the springtime is a week long Easter retreat. And it's Easter in the way of the first 500 years of Christianity not the way Easter celebrated today. And I don't, it's not that the way of celebrating Easter today is less than, but we have a new horizon to reach for. And I really welcome people to come and experiences ancient Easter and see if that might be a new expression for for coming age. So there's there's a lot during the website, please go Quadratos.comm and just one more piece. When I went to the US Patent Office to trademark the name quadratus. They came back to me and said, well, you have to declare that you don't know the work of somebody. In the second century, known known as Quadratus. Who was the Christian Bishop of Athens in the second century who wrote a treatise in the sense of the forum-ness and have this name Quadratus. So Quadratus now is a patron saint, Saint Quadtrus, and I was just astounded.

Seth 1:07:34

Were you able to declare that you're like yeah, I don't know.

Alexander 1:07:38

I honestly had never heard of this. That's but, you know you think that “you're creating something” and spirits using you in a wonderful way.

Seth 1:07:50

That's that's I don't think I knew that I like that. Well good Alexander, thank you so much. It's always a joy.

Alexander 1:07:58

Seth, thank you and the blessings of this season to your family into your heart. To know to know you is Christmas every day.

Seth 1:08:10

That's, that's, that's entirely too kind. But I thank you nonetheless.

Seth Outro 1:08:25

For me when I break down a part of that, so I've always felt standoffish when I thought about the influence, you know, of where the heck did Santa Claus come from? Or why don't we do this Christmas tree? This doesn't make any sense. And there's so many other things that we didn't talk about that I know we could have.

We could have talked about how the Cross has changed shape. We could have talked about X, Y, or Z. And we didn't, we just ran out of time. I really hopeful that we'll see Alexander's book soon. I can't wait to get through that. And I would highly recommend and encourage if you have not read through his Heart and Mind book, it is worth the time and effort to go through it but don't blaze through it. Take your time and do it. Consider supporting his ministry and his work. It's life giving it is truly impacted my faith. So take that for what it is.

A very large thank you to JJ Heller for the use of her music. In this episode, you can find her tracks as well as all the other tracks and and I've gotten lakhs on saying this, but I want to make sure everyone's aware on the Spotify playlist called Can I Say This At Church, you will find the tracks for them all listed there.

Wherever you happen to be these holidays, this Christmas or whatever you're celebrating. I pray that you're safe. Pray that you know that you are loved. I pray that you see God.

Talk to you soon.