Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Todd 0:00

Forgiveness basically, is the act of releasing someone from your emotional debt; feeling like they owe you something. When you're when you forgive somebody, you're literally releasing them from that and you're you're giving up the right to ever bring it up again. Because that's I mean, if you want to be thorough with your forgiveness, that's what it amounts to. I forgive you, I let it go. And that doesn't mean I'm going to bring it up at every family gathering and this and the other but it most people do that. But you know, true forgiveness, I believe is just releasing the person and then giving up the right to ever bring it up again. Because it's gone. It's behind you. It's released.

Seth Intro 0:51

What has happened in everybody, how are we doing? This is Seth, I am your host. Welcome to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. So there's a new thing in you will go to the website or in the show notes a couple ways that you can help out. So first off, you can rate and review the show, but you should have already done that. Second off, support the show either on Glow or on Patreon, especially this time of year. So for Patreon supporters, you get like a promo code to use in the store. And what better way to get yourself or someone else something that you like at a discounted rate there. So there is that. And you can ask anyone that knows I am the worst marketer or promoter of anyone that I know. So that's about as good as you're going to get there.

However, this I do need your help with I soft launch this a few weeks ago, just mostly to make sure that I did it correctly. And it appears that I did there is a survey at the website and in the show notes. So if you click down in there, you'll see the link for the survey and then over Can I Say This At Church com. There's a link for the survey. I get asked all the time, mostly by guests who listens to your show, what's the audience like where are they at? So they just kind of know where the shows coming from and for the longest time, I had no answers and I still really don't Who the people that listen are but that answer is beginning to take place as a few of you have already taken the survey, mostly some really close friends that have, you know, I send it to them to kind of fact check it or break it or make sure that it works. So do me a favor between now and the end of December, just go and click that button, I will take it back down at the end of December. But I would really appreciate your help with that. I would really appreciate your help with that. And then any other way that you can help out the show, just checking off the list there on the checklist. So rate and review, support the show financially, if able, depending on the way you do that, you may get a discount in the store. And please do that survey cost, you know time a little bit as I think there's 10 questions. So it's not like it's massive amount of time, but that would really help me.

I'm really excited for today's conversation. I had a chat with Todd Vick, about his most recent book called Renewing of Your Mind and I really enjoyed it. He approaches things just from a different point of view that I don't often entertain and I really like the way that he breaks apart some old stuff Is that we use quite often, but I think that you're really going to enjoy this. So here we go. The conversation with Todd Vick.

Seth 3:11

Todd Vick, welcome to the show, man. excited to have you on.

Todd 3:13

Thank you so much, Seth. I am just so excited to be here.

Seth 3:16

And then for those not listening earlier, I met Todd’s dog and so you may hear a dog or any other animals so it's always fun to have animals involved in this. So, Todd, this is my favorite question that I asked. And it's the one that I think people like to answer the least. But I like it. So what makes you you a lot of your story is in the book, which we'll talk about, but just at a high level, take a few minutes and kind of walk me through how you got to be what you are right now. Okay.

Todd 3:50

Really, it goes all the way back to the year 2001 for me, I was in seminary and I read a book by a guy called Steve McVey he actually wrote the foreword in my book, called grace walk. And it talked about his journey as a pastor and the legalism and all the stuff that he felt he was under the religious treadmill, people's expectations and how he just discovered grace in the midst of all that, and that just kind of set me on a path because I was I was that guy, I was doing the religious treadmill. I was pastoring a church, we were growing. Things look great. But inside, you know, my heart was just, you know, not in it at all. It was just, it was, burning out.

And I was doing everything the way I've been taught, thought I was doing everything, right.

But it just turns out, you know, years later, I find out that, you know, I'm not wired for that kind of legalistic environment. So I left local church ministry altogether about 2016 and then from 2001 to 2016 you know, my journey was one of just really doubting asking questions. I was in the ministry out of the ministry in the ministry out of the ministry, went through a divorce. You know, a lot of things happened during that time. But one thing that I discovered that just never left me was was grace, even when I was doing things that were stupid, because I was upset or whatever.

God's grace was there to catch me. And there was just a moment around 2016 where I realized, you know, I've been doing this wrong. I've been doing this wrong all these years. Preaching the same things and telling the same stories, and I just, I wasn't even sure that I myself believed it. And so what what I was going through at the time when I left the church, I didn't know what the word for it was, but apparently is called deconstruction. I didn't call it that. I looked at it as the renewing of your mind, and that's kind of where the book came in.

But I'm just you know, for the last several years, that's just what I've been doing. I've just been reading new things and reading books that other people would tell me don't read that because that's that's not that's not right. But I just been reading stuff and I love it and I'm growing and I've met some wonderful people online mostly on my on my good friends are all online spread around the world. Well, you know, thank goodness we can connect, you know like this. You know, I'm just, you know, I'm just a guy I don't think I'm anything special I'm just a guy who figured out God is more than than what I was making him out to be.

Seth 6:35

When you say religious treadmill, can you tell me what you mean by that? I think I know what I would mean by that. But I'm curious where you're coming from with that.

Todd 6:46

As a pastor, there was always one person in the church that took it upon themselves to kind of tell me, guide me, on what to do during the week. And so you know, it just became a daily things somebody would call and say, “here's what I need you to do today go visit so and so go stop by here and stop by ther. And I'm doing all this stuff for people in the church. I didn't have time to do for people that didn't come to church. And I just got stuck doing for the church so much that I just I forgot how to…I was trying so hard to keep my job that I forgot how to do my job. And I just missed opportunities to minister to people outside of the church because I was so busy trying to keep the church happy. And you really can't do that, as you know, eventually, they're just gonna ask you to leave and that's what happened to me.

Seth 7:37

Yeah. And then I want to circle back to what you said at the end there. So you said you're reading some things that people tell you, you know, air quotes, not to read? What are some of these (things)?

Todd 7:48

Well, Grace Walk was a great book. Nobody told me not to read that. But it was a great book. I've read Bob George’s Classic Christianity. That's a really good book about grace. More recently, I read The Shack by Paul Young; changed my life. I mean, it just messed me up. So bad, but so good.

Seth 8:09

I still need to read that book. I haven't read that book I've read while I've watched the movie, but I haven't read the book.

Todd 8:16

Yeah, the book is really good. I've never seen the movie, ironically. So we're kind of opposite on that one but and then I read you know, Love Wins by Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, books by Rachel Held Evans, Blue Like Jazz. And the more I read Brendon Manning, especially-wow what a great a guy he was, but I'm reading all this stuff.

And I'm like, yeah, this is…this is what I would say if I could put the word if I could put the words together. I would say these things begin to realize I'm not I'm not Todd, the Southern Baptist, conservative evangelical pastor anymore. I'm just not. I can't be that anymore. But even while I was doing it, I wasn't and I think that's what why I had so many problems with Christians and churches; I just, my heart just wasn't in it. And they I guess they deserve better than that. But yeah, it just ended.

Seth 9:08

Talk to me a bit about your book. So you referenced it a minute ago, you know, The Renewing of Your Mind, which you're using, I think is a metaphor for deconstruction, which is fine. I find so many people don't use that word unless you're in like that circle that uses that word. And I think it's good to use a different framework there. So talk to me a bit about like the genesis of the book (so) you're reading all these other books. And you So what was the tipping point where you're like, No, I've got something I need to say. And here's how and why. So how did that kind of begin?

Todd 9:40

I was at my last pastorate, back in 20,000, excuse me, 2015-20,000. We're not that far in the future yet. 2015. I was doing a teaching on Wednesday nights on Romans 12 to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I was mostly teaching, you know, the elderly, faithful saints of the church that would come on Wednesday nights. But I wanted to give them more than just, you know, here's what the Greek says, here's what the Hebrew says, I wanted to look deeper.

And so I started looking into the science of the brain l, neuroscience. And by, by no means do I consider myself an expert, I'm nothing but a student, but I have read some amazing books about the brain. And I tried to bring some of that stuff into the church, you know, on Wednesday nights to try to take our study even deeper. But they did. I mean, they, they liked it, but they, you know, it didn't really seem to matter to them. But it mattered to me, because while I was going through all this, I'm understanding why I'm the way I am. And that was a big revelation for me. Because for years and years and years, I wanted to be what everybody else thought I should be. And I just couldn't do it anymore. So I realized this is who Todd is, you know, the things that are happening to my brain, or that happened in our brain or happen into my brain right now. And so that that's kind of where the.,,the seed was planted. But it wasn't until a couple years later that I actually sat down and started writing out the book. But I had so many notes and so many webinars I attended. And so many books that I've read. I mean, it was so much material that I brought to the book. I didn't even use it all in the book, but just just that's what started it. I just wanted more and there's just more knowledge out there then, then between, you know, what I was what I was doing.

Seth 11:25

I want to jump on to that brain thing, because the chapter that you wrote on and I'm going to say it, probably, maybe I don't know how to say it. I'm just going to say neuro plus, neuro-plasticity is I think that's how you say it…

Todd 11:36

Right, neuroplasticity.

Seth 11:38

Yeah. So you're the second person I've ever heard use that word. I had a friend call me one time to kind of give me a high level overview to which I was driving. And that's just I'm not in the mind frame to be able to soak that in at that point. But I like how you be begin that chapter saying no, this is not a science textbook. So you can relax, which I like. But talk to me a bit about and for those listening like what is neuro plasticity? Like, what does that mean? What have you learned? How does that intersect with faith?

Todd 12:15

Okay? Well, I'm 51 years old. And back when I was in school, they used to teach us that the human brain had billions of cells, but they didn't grow. And so the best that you could do is not drink, not stopping the brain cells that way, don't hit your head, because we hit your head, you might lose some brain cells. And for years, that's what people taught that the brain is just what it is and it can't be anything else.

Modern science, neuroscience in particular, has made discoveries about the brain through through amazing technology and in the in healthcare, the MRI, the functional MRI, PET scans, they're able to look at the brain and actually see what it does when when certain thoughts are had, or when people are having a religious experience, they measure all of that is just incredible. But neuroplasticity is a word that I discovered in a book by John Aseraph, called Having it All. I watched him on the movie, The Secret, and I really liked his story. So I went and got that book and he talked about neuro plasticity, which is basically the brain's ability to reprogram itself. By feeding it new information, the brain can actually absorb that information, fire the neurons, and actually begin to take root in your subconscious, which is where 90% of thoughts come from anyway.

So as I began to study this stuff, it was just amazing. But neuroplasticity is the key I think for the renewing of our minds and for deconstruction. As we reconstruct, you know, we can we can teach our minds new things we can teach old dogs new tricks, so to speak, with neuroplasticity that it is possible that the brain can learn new things, even, you know, even when we get up in years. But yeah, neuroplasticity is powerful.

And that's just one of the things that I really got fascinated with once I started reading on that-started reading other books on neuroscience and things that there's so much wonderful stuff out there. But I just became fascinated with stuff like, like a nerd. I was just soaking it all in. And I don't usually have these conversations with people because it's just boring to them. But to me, it's fascinating. The capacity of the human brain to actually learn new things and reprogram itself, by thinking better thoughts, new thoughts, new information, because, you know, for years and years, people thought the earth was flat, and they thought the Earth was flat because it looked that way. You know, you turn to the right, you turn to the left-flat, but then, you know, discoveries were made that the earth is actually round, and once people absorb that new information, they did it, you know, kicking and screaming, all the way. But once it was proven and they realize that, you know, their brain actually starts to realize and reprogram that, hey, the Earth is round, it's not flat, it is round, regardless of what we see. And that's, that's just the brains of an amazing organ. And God made it and he made it amazing. And I just think, I think we owe it to ourselves to understand as much as we can about it.

Seth 15:21

So how do you connect the concept of, well, first, I mean, aside, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I've read so many different books on prayer, and they like do MRIs on people as they're praying. And even then, like just different faiths, like, you know, like indigenous people, when they pray. There's just different parts. Buddhists, when they do their thing, there's just different parts, like all the different prayers are activating different parts of the mind. And I mean, there's evidence that shows you know, you can, you can literally if you want to be more compassionate as you pray for compassion, the parts of the brain that control compassion, oddly enough, they get stretched and they're like, any other things. You use it more often and that highway gets running and gets bigger. And and, you know, there's there's a new interstate or what as a bad metaphor but how does that intersect then with someone in their faith? The ability for the brain to reprogram itself or to rewire? Like how do you how are you intersecting those two?

Todd 16:24

In my situation? You know, for almost 30 years I was a Southern Baptist minister, very conservative, went to a very conservative college and seminary and taught the Bible a certain way for a number of years. And once that had just, I guess, had a little bit of courage or curiosity to step outside of that and start looking at some other things. That's when I realized that I'm missing out on so much and there's so much more that I can put in my brain. Somebody once said that the average human being only uses about 10% of the brain their whole life. I don't know that that's exactly true. I think that's been debunked. But just the thought of that, that only 10% of your brain gets used in your entire lifetime. I was just not happy with that I wanted to do more if I could, if I could do more than 10%, I'd like to do that. So you just begin looking outside of the box that you're in. And once you do that, you realize that there really is no box.

Knowledge is just out there for you to grab. And so I began to grab knowledge that was more fitting with my particular character. I'm a compassionate, personal, loving person, a caring person. It was it's very hard for me to take scripture and turn it on somebody, you know, as a negative thing. I always want to help people and encourage people and I was taught kind of not to do that in some ways. For example, years ago, when I was first pastoring a couple came to me they wanted to get married. No one would marry them because they were living together. And of course, you know me being the young, fresh out of school, pastor I was so good you know, I just can't I'm good conscience do that for you. And I regret that every day since. And I wish I could go back and do that differently but just that kind of thing that yes, you can marry people that are just living together. There's nothing that says you can't win people can bring up scripture, keep the marriage bed undefiled and things like that.

But marriage, you know, I don't want to get on a rabbit trail here. But, you know, marriage, how we do it today is nothing compared to what it was in the Scripture. The marriage ceremony was a huge, powerful thing. You know, with us, it's a piece of paper. We go to the judge to get married and the pastor to get our pastor get married the judge to get divorced or something like that, but I just think there's better ways to do things and I just wanted to know what those things were. I wanted to find it, because I didn't feel good about myself or I was doing I wanted to change I wanted to be a better person.

Seth 19:03

Yeah. Is that your dove?

Todd 19:05

Yep.

Seth 19:08

I like it. I don't think I've ever heard a Dove before.

Todd 19:11

She about 21 years old. She's, 23 years old, excuse me.

Seth 19:15

Is that also the Dove talking?

Todd 19:18

No, that's not the Dove talking. That was my lovely wife.

Seth 19:22

I don't know if doves can talk. I don't know. I don't know anything about birds

Todd 19:26

Our Doves can laugh and bark like a dog, that's about all it does.

Seth 19:30

Hello to your wife.

Seth 19:53

One of my favorite chapters of your book is what you've done with the story of the ugly duckling. Which for those people paying attention. Is that old Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale about you know, that duck that doesn't fit in and has some awful beliefs about himself. I wonder if Todd you could rip apart that chapter a bit, and what you're trying to do with it, because that's one of my favorite chapters, I think because it's so simple. But I think that's what makes it so good as well. Wonder if you could rip that apart of it?

Todd 20:22

Yeah, the I resonate so much with the ugly duckling.

Just feeling like you don't fit in all the other, you know, ducks are better than you. They're more pretty than you. They can do more things than you they have. we're privileged new. And I grew up in a single parent home and my father was an alcoholic and all my friends you know, they had their mom, their dad had their great family time. They all went to church together and I just didn't have that. So I was just felt like I was, in a way an ugly duckling. So one of the things I love about that story is just taking it apart and trying to assume what the ugly duckling must I've been thinking most of the time and that's what that chapter attempted to do was to give give the ugly link some voice and some some thoughts.

You know, like, I think I used a job interview. You know, what, what would the ugly duckling look like in a job interview? You know, it will tell us something about yourself. Mr. duckling is well, I make people laugh at me. And, you know, things like that just, you know, completely self putting himself down at all, you know, everywhere. And then, you know, that story just kind of ties into the parable or the story of the prodigal son. And I kind of link the two together. But that ugly duckling concept is is I think it's really, it's more prevalent than we realize in Christianity. So many people are made to feel like they're not as good a Christian as this person or that person. Precious people that realize that they are attracted to the same sex and they're in church, and they're afraid to tell people because they know what's going to happen when they do. And so they carry that around like an ugly duckling. And just feel like Well, everybody else is better than me. There's something wrong with me because I don't, I don't like guys or I don't like girls. In general, you know, people are constantly comparing themselves while I don't go to church like I ought to, or like I should I don't read the Bible like I should or tied like I should, you know, how should you who says, How should you do that? And is it a formula that we can sit down and look at and do and who came up with it? Nobody! God does not expect any of that stuff to make us there to make him love us any more than he already does. And that can be a very liberating thought for somebody.

You know, “I'm trying to do my best to go to church and just do the best I can to the Lord comes back and deal with this planet to better I can tell the rapture comes”. And there's just so much more to it than that. And there's so much more to life than that. Otherwise, what's the point? And so that was kind of where I found myself years ago. I don't want to just wait until the rapture comes and do the best I can, but there's got to be more to it than this has to be. Turns out there is there's a lot more to it.

Seth 23:22

So when people disagree, and as a pastor, I think I talked with a lot of pastors as well. And, you know, behind scenes, there's a lot of tears, a lot of crying, a lot of shame. And often there's not a lot of forgiveness. Churches just break apart, communities break apart. friendships, families break apart. It's just, it's just awful. And so you talk a bit about Africa, what chapter it is, but you have a chapter called like, the renewing of forgiveness. And so for you, like what is forgiveness? Like, how do we use it, how do you posture with it? How does it work in because you say in Here you give a definition of what forgiveness is not, you know, you say forgiveness is not forgiving. It's not an approval of the offense. And forgiveness is not necessarily reconciliation even. So then what is forgiveness if it's not any of those three things?

Todd 24:17

Forgiveness, basically, is the act of releasing someone from your emotional debt; feeling like they owe you something. When you forgive somebody, you're literally releasing them from that and you're giving up the right to ever bring it up again. Because that's I mean, if you want to be thorough with your forgiveness, that's what it amounts to.

I forgive you, I let it go. And that doesn't mean I'm going to bring it up at every family gathering and this that and the other, but most people do that. But you know, true forgiveness, I believe is just releasing the person and then giving up the right to ever bring it up again. Because it's gone. It's behind you, it's released. And when you know it is finished, except for you know, this area, that area this person, that person.

He said it's finished.

That's, I mean, that's a pretty bold, conclusive statement it is finished. And he tells the Apostle Paul, my grace is sufficient for you. That means you don't need anything else my grace is enough for you. And unfortunately, Grace is just doesn't seem to be enough when it comes to forgiveness.

God, you know, God has taken me a long journey through forgiveness. I share a lot of it in the book, I’ll spare us that here. But, you know, forgiveness is, is hard. If you don't understand what you've been forgiven for, where you how much you've been forgiven. And I think there's something in scripture that says, Well, Jesus says those that are forgiven much understand, you know, forgiveness better than someone who's not forgiven so much.

When Jesus is telling the parable, he mentions 10,000 talents. And so I, you know, I read that years ago I'm like, what's what's a talent 10,000 talents that mean he could do 10,000 things well? Like juggling or something? But it's a financial expression of basically at one talent is 6000 dinerai which is, you know, in a denarius is one day's labor back in the Biblical days. So basically one talent is 6000 days of debt. But he said 10,000 talents, so you add all that up at 60 million days of debt. 60 million days of debt! and the average person only lives 89,200 days if they live to be 80.

So we're talking 37 lifetimes of sin, of debt, that that was forgiven. When Jesus was on the cross and he said it is finished. I mean, 37 lifetimes plus of sin-Gone-erased. I've never bringing it up again.

Seth 27:03

I've never done that math before. That's powerful. I don't remember if you did that math in the book or not. And if you did, I must, I must have missed it. I must have missed it. And that's shame on me. I'm a banker.

Yeah, and so that that makes all the more powerful the seven times 74 forgiveness as well, like, you know, here's the worth of this. Here's how often you know, you're going to do this. And then here's how also often you're going to be both sides of the coin. There's this side, right? And that side, right, I've never done that. That's insane.

Todd 27:36

And Jesus never said, you know, on, you know, forgive 70 times seven. That doesn't mean that after 490 times, that's it. You don't have to forgive anymore. Of course he's employing hyperbole there you forgive as much as it takes. And then just goes on to break it down like that.

In the story, even though it's a parable, it's a powerful story. That gives us two versions of forgiveness, it gives us the forgiveness itself and the gratitude of being forgiven of such an enormous unpayable, ever-unpayable debt. To the next scene where the guy, find somebody that owed him, basically, $16 an equivalent, and he, you know, chokes him and says, pay me what you owe me and puts him in prison. And then the king finds out about this and and then, and then you know that the story ends with “God turned him over to the tormentors”. And that's always bothered me too, because, you know, if God is love, and God is forgiveness, then what's this tormenting thing that in quite literally the tormenting is what we bring on ourselves, when we do not forgive. That's the torment that that I believe God is speaking of, or Jesus was speaking of in that parable. It's not that God turns you over to something really awful as it is that you bring something really awful into your mind. And it really you know, I think many people take pills for that and we you know, we call it depression. We call it anxiety. I can't prove that everybody's holding bitterness and that's what the problem is. But I wonder how many people would be healed of depression and healed of anxiety, if they would just learn to properly forgive someone else.

And, you know, I've had to work through that. It's one thing to write about It is one thing to teach about It is one thing to preach about it, but actually do it that's, that's where the, you know, that's where the, that's where it gets hard. So, I've worked through forgiveness for many, many years. And it's just an ongoing process. But, you know, I break it down, I've broke it down to three things in the book is what you do, you know, you write a list of people that you need to forgive and the list will be ongoing. And, you know, with each person on the list, you just say, okay, so and so. I love you, I forgive you, I release you, and I love you. And once you do that, more and more, you start, actually, you know, the neuroplasticity starts, you know, bringing that to your brain more and you start thinking that That way, it just changes. It changes a lot.

You know, when we talk about forgiveness, another thing that I've, you know, preached on forgiveness and gotten in trouble with, you know, is forgiving the terrorists, you know, who perpetrated 9/11 you know, forgiving Osama Bin Laden, forgiving, you know, Saddam Hussein, and you say this in a church, and I've actually had people get up, walk out, and I understand why they're doing it. It offends your American pride. But we're not about American, we're about the kingdom. And in the kingdom of God forgiveness is power. Forgiveness is life. Forgiveness is grace. And it's empowering when you forgive somebody like that. It doesn't mean you approve of terrorism. And it doesn't mean that you think what they did was right. It just means I'm not going to hold this grudge for you because it's hurting me to do so.

It's actually tormenting me to not forgive you and so I have to do it because if I don't do it, I'm going to be tormented. So forgiveness is for our benefit as much as more than anything else. Forgiveness releases people from our debt releases us from the burden of having to hate them. And it's just very liberating and powerful. And I really spent a lot of time in the book with that, because I wanted to get that across. And it's just so crucial to your spiritual life. If you're holding unforgiveness, you're just not going to grow. It’s just that simple

Seth 31:25

So one of the questions I wrote down, as I thought through, you know, the overall arching theme of your book, and it's because so at our church recently, like, we meet every so often on Sunday nights, and I honestly can't remember the cadence, because I just remember about it that Sunday morning, and then I'm like, Yeah, sure. We're coming back. It's like once every four, six weeks, something like that. And we've been working through the enneagram, which I've been enjoying, but we talk a lot about, you know, in that in that framework, are you familiar at all with that framework of the enneagram or no?

Todd 31:58

I've just started looking into it. I've heard enough people talk about it, and I figure Well, I better get on board.

Seth 32:02

It's fascinating. It's fascinating. And I don't want to be on those people that just makes everything that but in there there is you know, there's a heart, there's a mind and there's like a body and Scripture also looks at that you know, love the Lord with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, know your body. And so as you're renewing your mind, one of the questions I wrote is, how is that impacting? How do you see that impacting our heart and our body?

Todd 32:29

There's new science, that the brain is closely connected with the gut, so to speak, this, you know, where you really feel something in your gut. There's a, there's a fancy medical word for that, that escapes me at the moment, but you feel something in your gut is coming from your brain. They're, they're actually connected. And some people say will listen to your heart, not your brain. You're actually talking basically about the same thing. These are connected the heart responses as the brain tells it to, we can tell the brain what we want to believe, blah, blah, blah, anyway.

So, using the brain, you know, forgiveness, things like that actually, joy, love, all of these things cause dopamine and they cause endorphins to secrete from the brain and into the body. Forgiveness actually is good for your health, there's actually health benefits. I think I covered in the book some of that, health benefits to forgiving someone will just make your stomach feel better. It makes your body feel better, you have less stress, you have less joint pain, things like that; just because you you train your brain to forgive instead of hold a grudge. Because holding a grudge is where you get the stomach problems and the digestion problems, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, a lot of that stems from just wrong thinking or unhealthy thinking. But when you when you start to renew the mind the brain actually helps the body by releasing those chemicals into the body.

And it just promotes healing, it promotes happiness. You know, I meet people a lot that go to church, and they, you know, they have a bumper sticker “too blessed to be stressed”. And I just, that's just bullcrap. I mean, to me, that's just bullcrap.

Because you know stress is a very powerful thing and you can't be you got to have some of it in your life but how you deal with it is key. But denying it I think is what the be blessed to stress to you too blessed to be stressed thing I think that actually denies some of what we're actually talking about, you know, sort of denies it, there's a problem but there's actually you know, there may be more stress than you realize. Yeah, that, you know, renewing the mind is is is really the beginning to living healthier, living better lives and feeling better and sleeping better just causes so many problems to disappear. Why would we not want to do more of it? or learn how to do it at least

Seth 35:15

You talk in chapter 17, and I don't want to hash all that out because a lot of what you've written here is deeply personal. And I don't know that I'm necessarily comfortable enough right now to talk about that in such a public forum. I would recommend people definitely get the book and read through that. But I think it fits very well, with, with what you said at the beginning of ministers losing kind of the how to do the job you're doing, you're doing the job just because I've got a light bill, and I've kids that need to eat. And I definitely have some allergy medicines because I'm a big fan of not sneezing, you know, and so you forget how and so with your experiences, of being in the ministry, and then all of this growth center Then what would be maybe three or four things that you'd be like, listen to me right now church, here's what you need to do. Because we're breaking our ministers which all this all the studies show that we are all not just do so many ministers burnout, because they always have to pick up the phone, they don't get really a day off even if they have a day off. It's because they can't be right. I don't think there's a lot of safe spaces. They're not trained to deal with, you know, certain types of mental physical trauma. They're just not trained for that. But I think people unloaded on them. And so with your experiences, and then just kind of some of your story, like, what would be three or four things would be like, all right, listen, here's we need to start doing this. And here's why. Like, what would you integrate if you were to rebuild things?

Todd 36:46

Basically, I'd narrow it down to three simple things and they're simple, but they're hard to do. They're hard to make yourself do it.

The first is just you know, choose. You cannot do anything different if you don't, unless you choose to, if you if you don't make the choice to make a change, nothing's going to happen. Because you know, we need that, you know that mark there to say, “Okay, here's where I draw the line. After this, I'm going to start changing, start doing things differently”. And this is, you know, if you're going to lose weight, if you're doing anything like that you have, you got to make a choice, I'm going to do it. And so with, you know, with deconstruction, and with renewing the mind, you know, the first thing you have to do is just choose I'm going to do this, I've got to read other things, I've got to branch out and look at some different viewpoints that are, you know, different than mine and, and kind of try to meet in the middle of all this and see if, you know, see if any of it sticks. So that would be the first major thing. If you don't choose to renew your mind at this, you know, it'll just be one of those things that you know, 10 years from now, I wish I had done it. And we don't want that, I really strongly encourage people to read the book, and then choose. I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm not gonna live This way anymore. For me, it was just desperation. I couldn't live this way anymore. I had a nervous breakdown, spent time in the hospital spent time in therapy. So I knew I had to make a change. There was no question about it. And so I chose to do things differently to approach life differently to approach the Bible differently. And, and it's really been liberating to be honest.

So choices, the first one, and then the second would be confrontation. You've got to confront your old thoughts. You've got to confront your old mindsets. You have to be willing to look in the mirror and say, Maybe I'm wrong. I was just having a conversation with somebody a little while ago on social media. Somebody I knew for a long time. Very much and Evangelical, very much in the conservative camp it made a statement that you know, all Millennials are are whiny babies that you know depend on the government and they depend on man. And I was like, Well, what data do you have to support that really because I was interested because I know Millennials are, they're leaving the church in droves is probably because of comments like that. When he just said, you know, my eyes, my eyes, this is what my eyes are telling me. What does your heart tell you? And then he began to quote scripture, you know, Jesus turned the money changers tables and this that the other is like, you know, “Brother, you can make scripture say anything you wanted to say, to win an argument, you really can, but it takes but it takes real courage and character to look in the mirror and say, Maybe I'm wrong about this”.

Maybe I'm not the authority that I thought I was on matters like this, and kind of left it at that, but you've got it. You've got to have the courage to confront your your old ways of thinking, especially, you know, in the book I dealt with my experiences with racism in the church through the years and you know, I've had actually had my life threatened a couple of times because you know, for a lot of people of color coming to church but, you know, Some people say well, I, you know, I was born that way I was raised that way. But you really choose to be that way. You absorb information, you, you, you know, watch the signs of people you grow up with. And you just you become this you don't you're, you know, you're not born a racist. Racism is just kind of something you picked up along the way. And so with me, I had to be willing to confront that because I consider myself one of the most non-racist people I know. But if I had to be really honest with myself, there are still areas of my life that I need to work on with that. And so I mean, it's just a work in progress, but you got to be willing to confront that thing and say, this thing might have a bigger hold on me than I thought it did. And you know, just just confront so choice confrontation, and then you know, the confrontation courses, that is the hardest part. And then, you know, you just kind of start living that way.

Day by day start gathering new information. You know, basically the brain works like this. You give it information, it process the information like a computer, it stores information in your subconscious. So these are things that you don't even think about when you're awake. These are the things that you dream about when you're sleeping. And, you know, for years, I used to dream that I was back in middle school and there was a test and I didn't know I was ready for it. I didn't know the combination of my locker because it had been there since 1980. It was just you know, dreams like that. But you know, when you start feeding your mind with different things on a regular basis, the subconscious starts to finally absorb these things. And pretty soon, you know, lately I've been having dreams where I'm like in charge of something or that I own something or that I'm leading people in something. And that's a big difference from being the you know, the kid who couldn't find his locker and you know, not ready for a test. And some people have, you know, even more vivid dreams than that, but You know, once you once you confront yourself, you know, then you begin to just acquiesce and begin to start over. Day by day, dear friend of mine, passed away of cancer years ago used to say that people act and react based on the information that they have in front of them. And that really challenged me to look at the what is the information that I have in front of me, that has caused me to act and react certain ways. And you know, once we once we get to the heart of that, and we start to add new things and then rebuild with a stronger foundation of compassion and grace and love, and all the things that that embody Jesus. It just begins to change our lives, it changes our health, it changes our everything, which is it's a good way to go.

Seth 42:51

You're talking about that story about you know, griping about millennials, and so I get that a lot personally, because I work at a bank. I'm The branch manager at that bank and I'm also a millennial. And usually, usually that role is not held by a millennial. Right? So I get that often. And I've, this is gonna sound really mean, but it's usually as someone that's, you know, rigid Bible believing, especially because I'm here in Central Virginia, but I always turn it on its head, and they'll walk away. So always ask them you know, do you do you believe that you Train up a child in the way that they should go? And the answer is always absolutely. Okay then whose fault is this Todd? You did exactly what you did if you're so upset. We only are the way that you made us like I don't know. I don't know who you're actually mad at.

Which that works in so many ways. And I don't usually take it in a religious way. We're talking about you like online everything or Facebook. Um, yeah. So then piggybacking on that, as well, so actually have the new data because I'm the guy that has to soak up data. So like on October 17, Pew came out with their new, this year's worth of data. And it's like another 13 point dip, like from like 53% to 41% or something like that. Like, it's not just millennials leaving the church. It's just all the people. Which is so bad. And I think you're I think it's just because we just yell, we don't do anything. We hoard wealth. We, we, we don't, we're not the church. We're just out borrow a phrase from a friend. “We're just a glorified social club that is hard to distinguish from the Kiwanis” like you not actually church, you're just a nonprofit coladas with a cross on the on the on the on the on the doors there so yeah, right. Well drive at home I want to give you the last word for those listening, that are driving you know, pull over pay attention. This is what you need to take if there's anything that you wanted to say that maybe I didn't touch on the July Yeah, here this if you don't hear anything At all hear this and then to the end of that just dovetail in where can people go? The books available where good books are sold? You know, Amazon the normal places? Where would you direct people to? As they're like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna go get this. So what would you want people to hear last? And then how do they go get it?

Todd 45:18

The main thing that I would probably drive home is, is that there is a better way to live than what you're living now. If you're unhappy, if you're unhappy in your relationships, you're unhappy at work if you're unhappy in school. There's a better way because so many people feel like this is my life. This is the cross that I'm supposed to bear. This is God's plan for my life. And I've got to be strong, and actually know there's actually a better way to look at things in that it's just by renewing your mind by thinking better thoughts and looking at better solutions. And then you'll actually begin to have better life outcomes and that that was really the whole point of the book and qs far as my story, because I was having bad outcomes for such a long time, and the reason I was having bad outcomes was because I was doing stuff wrong. And so when you when you learn better ways of living and better ways of being a husband better ways, being a father better ways being a Christian and a church member or non church member, you know, learning to embrace deconstruction, and try to, you know, figure out a better way to do these things. Just know that there is a way to do it, you can do that you have the power to do that. It's called the brain. And God gave it to us and he expects expects us to use it, I would imagine.

So, you know, open your mind, use your mind, renew your mind. And things will begin to change not immediately, but things will begin to change. You'll wake up one day, a year from now two years from now be like, Wow, look at where I've come all this time from where I started. Hopefully because you read my book and it changed your life. That was my prayer behind it, but But you know there there are other wonderful books out there about the brain and about how to how to how to make it work for you instead of against you. But the book is available on Amazon. I self published through them and so that you know, being my first book, I just went that way. Today it's available on Amazon the renewing of your mind. Todd harvick. My website is ToddVick.com, email if you want to email me get in touch that way. I love to hear from people. Sometimes I get questions from from people and and I'm happy to answer. You know, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And I love communicating like that with with people that read the book. You know, and it just means a lot to me that they took the time out of all the great books in the world that they took time to read my book. Yeah, it just it's amazing. It's an amazing feeling. But yeah, that's that's where it's available to Amazon. Yeah, perfect. Yeah.

Seth 47:55

Yeah. And I would encourage I enjoyed reading the book and thanks for sending it to me very much. And I would echo it's, I read a lot of books. I really enjoyed reading your book. So very much so and thanks so much for coming on Todd, really appreciate what you're doing. Thank you so much for having me. It's great. I keep getting drawn back to what Todd talked about at the beginning about pastors not being allowed to check out like making sure that there's a healthy place and I can't think of a more important thing as we walk into the holiday Advent all the way through Easter season. It's just a huge machine of clockwork, that must happen. Because the church is I feel like often that we we think the church is something it's not. The church is all about loving and taking care of people less about that building that we like to go to on Sunday, and I love my church building as much as the next person. That's not the church. And so I pray that each of you will find the space to recharge to rest. I pray that each of you will find new ways, or revisit old ways to renew both your heart and Your spirit and your mind because God's in all of that. Talk with you next week. Be blessed.