Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Aaron 0:00

If you look at Jesus’ life, there absolutely seems to be a balance or a rhythm between the whitewater and the still waters. And you see him enter into the city. You see him throwing himself in the middle of the chaos. And then you see him withdrawing, getting quiet. And so I think I would suggest that this river, the kingdom flow that God is doing in the world, is not the kind of relentless whitewater that drowns us. I feel like the, the way we bring our ambition, the way we chase things, the way our culture is set up, is totally suffocating and drowning. And this river is an invitation beyond that kind of chaos.

Seth Intro 1:12

Welcome back, everyone. So happy that you're here. So happy for you to hear this conversation that I was able to have with with Aaron Niequist. So Aaron is a pastor, musician, a worship artist, a leader just and he has a book that has come out in August that is beautiful. It's titled The Eternal Current. How a practice based faith can save us from drowning. And that drowning is drowning in life and in longing to know where to go. I feel like so often today in the world that we live in, where we're going has too many options. And so we for fear of choosing wrongly we just don't choose it all; and that makes us bitter. This book is a conversation about an invitation to join in to the river and the current that is guiding the entire universe and you and I and the breath that we breathe right now. It's an accepting of the invitation to come as you are into the current of salvation in Jesus. I really hope that you enjoyed today's episode. Here we go.

Seth 2:47

Aaron Niequist, thank you so much for joining the Can I Say This At Church podcast. You are many things and I asked you a minute ago kind of how to introduce you and you wear a lot of hats. So you are a liturgist you write music and I I will say, there's two of the music that you write two of the albums that specifically I enjoy to listen to on a monthly basis. You're also a pastor. I'm pretty sure you're a husband and you must be a father. So what would you want those listening to you to know about you?

Aaron 3:19

Oh, wow. Um, well, first, thanks so much for inviting me onto this podcast and into this conversation. I think maybe I want people to know that this is not a conversation I'm having outside of my life. It's something I'm trying to figure out, and get swept up into, in my actual life. So maybe if there's one thing it's that this journey we're talking about, I'm really trying to do it too.

Seth 3:48

Well, that's, that's hard. It's hard to do it while you talk about it. I can tell you from experience it, because if you do it wrongly, then you have to admit it. But you have to do it. way that you don't want to be hypocritical. But I like the honesty involved in yeah, it's fine to be wrong.

Aaron 4:08

To just say here, here it is. I'm not sure whether left or right but we're going to try left and then we're going to see what we learned from it.

Seth 4:16

So of the jobs that you do, you know, literally just, and pastoring and writing music. Which one is your favorite? Like, which one is the one that you fall back on when you're frustrated with everything else?

Aaron 4:28

Yeah, I think I've always felt at the core of the core of the core, I'm a songwriter. Like to say that even when I was a worship leader professionally, in my heart, I felt like a songwriter. And that's probably expanded a little bit to pastor; but not pastor in the sense of what we usually think of the you know, the person who preaches and leads the church. But kind of the person who walks alongside people, and helps ask the right question at the right moment. Who helps listen, who helps provoke. There’s something about that there's something about provoking but then also inviting into another space.

Seth 5:18

Yeah. Well, I wanted to firstly say thank you for letting me use your music in a prior episode. And I know that this conversation started. And you have written a book that comes out in August, entitled The Eternal Current. What is that? What are you looking to achieve? What is kind of the Genesis and the reason that you felt led to write that book?

Aaron 5:39

Yeah.

Well, the very short version is I've been a Christian my whole life, went to a Christian College, got a job at a Christian church as a worship leader, and my faith completely imploded. And it was one of those really weird and kind of haunting moments of I remember on a Sunday morning, getting ready to lead a bunch of songs. I'm thinking, I don't believe any of these songs like, what am I going to do? And so it was quite a crisis.

And in the process of that, I won't bore you with the entire three year journey, but just discovered I had been approaching my faith in a wildly unhelpful sense. I had really thought it was as simple as I'm a sinner. Here's a prayer. It'll get you into heaven someday, now don't do bad stuff.

Like I really had internalized that as the story of Christianity. But thank God through some books through some friends through some experiences. I was invited to consider that Jesus’ message was not that but in fact, Jesus’ message was an invalid into the kingdom of God. And so very long way to say that the idea of this river is that there's this river flowing throughout all of creation towards the redemption and restoration of all things. That's very NT Wright language. I know, I know he's on the podcast. I've basically that whole thing is just stolen from NT Wright’s work. But the inside of the book is Jesus doesn't just say believe about this river. Jesus says, learn to swim in it with me.

And that has been transformational for me. I thought that the goal of Christianity was believing the right stuff. Like here are the five things, click them all off and you're in. And I'm realizing when I read the teachings of Jesus and those who follow Jesus, it's way more “join me, participate”. I say in the book, “the invitation is participation”. And so just moving from a belief space faith to a practice base faith.

Seth 8:05

So what then do you think is the distinction you said between redemption and reconciliation? That's not what you said? Or is that what you said you use to our words. So what iteration redemption restoration. So what is the what is the difference between those two?

Aaron 8:19

(Between) redemption and restoration? Oh, well, you'll have to ask NT Wright; he os the expert (tongue in cheek)

No, I think those both go under the the big umbrella of making things right, this world feels like it's spinning completely out of control. I mean, especially in our country and the last year or two. And I think one of the biggest acts of faith that were invited to believe is that God has not given up on this world, not even on America in 2018 but God is making things right and will make things right. And inviting us to participate.

Seth 9:04

Yes. And not to get political but not necessarily making America great again, but making America restored. Period. Yeah. Period, not again, just just restored.

Aaron 9:15

Yes, yes! Or maybe making America… I mean, I don't want to get, I'm not trying to get all…

Seth 9:21

No that’s fine. I didn't write that down. So yeah,

Aaron 9:24

Maybe letting America run its course and inviting us into a new way of being human on the planet. I don't think God is overly concerned with preserving any nation. Um, but God loves God's people. Every single one. And so for God still loves the world, you know?

Seth 9:47

Yeah, I can mirror a lot of well, as I read the first third of your book, it was like I was reading an autobiography because I also try to lead worship at my church. About every Sunday, usually, and that's involved, or that's become involving my children. And they hear me practice during the week here at home. And I struggle with a lot of the songs that we sing, and enough so that I've asked my pastor before or the worship minister that, you know, I'm just a layperson. I'm not on staff. Like, I don't think I can sing this song.

And they can tell like I sang one last night at practice. And at the end, I was like, Man, that was the first time in a long time that I connected with the words in a way that even at practice I was worshipping. And, I mean, I know you can really you can feel the difference when you just saw a rock song. Yeah, versus when we're actually worshipping. And maybe it sounds crass. But I often find in those moments, it doesn't even matter what the congregation is hearing, because I know I'm worshipping.

Yeah. And I'm worshipping and that's I hope that they are but I am.

Aaron 10:59

Yeah, that’s right. Yep. Otherwise, it just becomes like Christian karaoke. And who has time for that. Right?

Seth 11:08

So yeah, it was actually when when all the songs are from from KLOVE, or whatever, which is one of the things I appreciate about your music is it's not songs that I would hear on the radio. That's one of the things I appreciate is it's a call to honesty as opposed to keep calm and let's just be happy here. So if Christ is calling us to this eternal river how do I get in it? Like, why would I already not be in it? Like what is keeping me outside of it?

Aaron 11:46

Yeah, well, that's a that's a really good distinction.

I spent almost a whole chapter talking about where is God and I realized as a worship leader, as a pastor, I have said some hugely problematic things. Like God, we invite you here today. Or, God we pray for your presence or, and it like, last couple years I've just been saying, Wait, where do I think God is? God we are fully immersed in God's presence always. All of us, no matter our beliefs, no matter our actions, we are fully in (the presence) the question is awareness. So I think in some of my former, some of the former ways of believing I was like, Well, if I can sing the right like gods in the parking lot of the church, I can sing the right song God will come in, you know, for deeper like in my life, like God is kind of standing with arms folded away from me, and if I can just get my act together and finally stop this sin and finally start doing my prayers, right, whatever that means. God will draw close.

I don't believe that anymore in any capacity. God is already as close one of the there some theologians translate “Our Father who art in heaven as our father who fills the heavens”. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah, to which another teacher John Ortberg actually he translated that as “our Father who is closer than the air we breathe”.

Which is that is stunningly beautiful.

Seth 13:27

Why is that something the Bible, I don't have that version.

Aaron 13:31

Why haven't we heard it that way‽ And so the question is not how do I convince God to approve of me and come close? The question is God already approves of me, God is already as close as the air I breathe. Then the question is on us. How do I open up to that reality?

And that's what I think is the key of a practice base faith. You know, the spiritual disciplines, these exercises. They're not for God. God is already bent toward us pouring God's love onto us, into us and through us. But we really get to either open up to it, or avoid it.

The humility of God, that God would allow us to avoid God's blessing. And so these practices, whether they're very religious, you know, historic Christian practices, or very casual open practices that give us eyes to see what is already there, which is God and God's love.

Seth 14:37

I like it and it reminded me of two things. So back in one of the acts of the very first interview I ever did was with Jared Byas, and he was talking about Jonah and Jonah is trying to escape the presence of God. So it keeps going down and keeps going down and keeps going down and it's hateful when you can't get away from me like just leave me alone go away! Which kind of mirrors that he's already there. Even if you don't want him to I'm here just, it's fine. He's here. And you're here. You know, David saying, you know, where can I flee from your presence?

Aaron 15:08

Yes, absolutely, this is a little bit of a mechanistic analogy, but I think some of it helps.

Like, at this moment, there are dozens, if not hundreds of radio waves flowing through my body and through my ears and through yours, but we're just not aware of them. And so we have to be able to tune the radio to hear the radio waves that are already there, again, to mechanistic to fully capture what's going on with God and God's creation. But there’s something about that.

Seth 15:42

If God's already here, and I just need to tune in, and you talk about this a little bit with Ephesians 4 in your book. So how, what is the purpose of the church then; is it just to help me tune in, am I supposed to come here? To find the channel to listen to, or is it supposed to teach me to find the channel myself to use that metaphor? How do I, why do I, even go on Sunday or Saturday or Wednesday? Whatever day your your church happens?

Aaron 16:12

Yeah, I would say the the quick answer is all of the above. I think the in the church it's a very complicated thing. But let me enter in a little bit. Um, I've been working a lot with the idea of church as gymnasium, rather than churches classroom.

I think how I grew up, is you show up at this place, and they do some music and then someone talks at you and you learn some stuff, and then you go home. And I think that's helpful to a point. But I remember I started thinking it's like, it's like if you showed up at a lifetime fitness and said, “Hey, I'm kind of out of shape. I want to run a marathon in six months. Will you help me”?

And they say, “Sure, come to the back room, and a U2 cover band, play some songs. And then an expert gives a 45 minute lecture on marathon running, and then says, All right, come back next week, we'll do it again”.

You know, you'd be like, I appreciate the inspiration. I really do. And I learned a ton from this expert. But my body is no, I'm not one step closer to being able to run a marathon. And I think there's something there about the church where inspiration is really important. And teaching is really important, but in my opinion, only to teach us the practices that helps us align with God all week long. Or in the swimming analogy, it's like a swimming class where you learn all right, today we're going to learn the breaststroke. And you learn about it, but then you also get into the water and you work on the shoulder muscles and you know, so that we we used to say at our Sunday night, community, Sunday is important, but Sunday is not the main event. Your actual life is the main event and Sunday just serves that.

So I don't think that diminishes what Sundays are because I think they're critically important. None of us can do this alone. But they're also not the center there at best a springboard.

Seth 18:18

It's the term…churches now. And I'm going to try to rephrase it in a different way. Because Because I like the marathon metaphor. So churches now are more like the terms of service in the app updates. And what we need is church to act more like the couch to five k app, the its time to get and do something. You've been on the couch long enough, you know, better! Get up and just… Just do it. Just get in it. And once you're in it, you're fine. It's so good.

Aaron 18:41

Yeah. And you know, like my wife. She would call herself a “passionate non runner”. But she did a marathon with World Vision a number of years ago, and she killed it.

But in reflecting what we realized she had a vision, a goal, which is for these kids will vision. And then she had a plan that the World Vision team said you run this much on week one, you know.

And then every Saturday they met as a group and did their long run on a trail. And she said later, I never would have done one of those long runs, not even one, if it was by myself, but it was with this group that I cared about. And we're like, and isn't that the spiritual life? Like, we need a vision? We need an actual plan that works. And then we need people to do us. And so there's something there with church.

Seth 19:33

Just to define that what is a passionate non runner? What does that actually mean? That's a dangerous question. Because I know she’s your wife.

Aaron 19:42

Yeah, that's funny. A lot of us are non runners, and we feel guilty about it.

She does not want to be a runner.

Seth 19:53

I'm excited that you'd like running and I'll watch you do that

Aaron 19:56

…and I'll watch you.

Seth 19:59

Digging back into the metaphor of swimming, learning the breaststroke, getting into the river. So there was a time in my life that I'm unashamedly an Eagle Scout and, and I can remember being in a Boy Scout Ranch in Colorado, and we went down the rapids, and I can tell you that a quickly moving current is extremely exhausting.

And so, if I'm being called to enter into this current, and I get in it, how do I just…well, I would love to say it's, it's fine to get swept away, and you know, and we're talking about this metaphor, but I find that exhausting that, which sounds selfish. Like there's a portion of me that I maybe would want to hold back or not, but how do I then is it fair to want to get out? And if not, how do I not just get thrown underneath the bottom of the current and bounce off the bottom?

Aaron 20:48

Yeah, such good questions. Well, a couple observations. One is if you look at Jesus life, there absolutely seems to be a balance or a rhythm between the whitewater and the still waters. And you see him enter into the city. You see him throwing himself in the middle of the chaos. And then you see him withdrawing, getting quiet.

And so I think I would suggest that this river, the kingdom flow, that God is doing in the world is not the kind of relentless whitewater that grounds us. I feel like the, the way we bring our ambition, the way we chase things, the way our culture is set up, is totally suffocating and drowning. And this river is an invitation beyond that kind of chaos. So it doesn't mean it's just like laying by the side of a pool all day with a Mai Thai, it's not that kind of thing. But it's the this idea of rhythm.

One of the central passages that we focused on as our practice community for the last four years was Matthew 11. Was the are you worn out are you tired? Come to me, basically come to me and I'll teach you how to swim. But it has this line, learn the unforced rhythms of grace.

And there's something there about unforced because, you know, like, I haven't done whitewater rafting, but I've done a ton of water sports and all these kinds of things. When you find the middle of that current, even if you're going really fast, if you're in the right place, it just flows like talk about unforced; but when you're outside of it, even if the current slower and you're working against it or fighting it-it's totally crushing and exhausting. So the something there (in) unforced and rhythms.

Seth 23:03

And to go further on that, so one of the things that they teach you before you're allowed to get into the rapids is a don't take off your life fest. But if you do get flopped over face first, just let the current take you. Because if you try to push yourself up off of the floor, it's like an elephant standing on, you'll never beat it. You can't. You won't surface again, you'll drown. If you don't stop fighting the rapids. You can't. You can't go there. Yeah, and the reason I say it's exhausting as I can remember even just coasting down and being all well and good. I felt so beat up the next day. Like, sore everywhere. And I couldn't help but be reminded of that as I read your text.

Aaron 23:46

Yeah. It's interesting. It's a I mean, there's this tension. I mean, that the passage I just mentioned was and I will give you, I will teach you how to take a real rest and you'll recover your life and I think that's absolutely true. And whoever wants to find their life will lose it and offer your life as a living sacrifice holy and pure. I mean, so there's this, talk about rhythm, tension between recovering our life and losing our life. And yes, definitely both and…

Seth 24:21

You saying that reminds me of? Who was it? I spoke to someone, Alexander Shaia, And he had said, No, no, that's the thing that Christians tend to forget. When, and this is a different scripture. But you know, when you take up your cross and you bear it for, you know, for Christ, you can't take it back up again, unless you eventually set it down. And when you set it down, that's when you lean into church and your family and that love is what recharges you to then pick back up what you're called to do and go a little further knowing that here in a little bit, you're gonna have to set it back down and kind of get in a rhythm of exert force and then recharge.

Aaron 25:00

I had a friend who said our mentor who said this whole idea of balance is ridiculous. First of all, it's impossible to find a perfect balance. But the other thing that balances is kind of neutral. Like never too fast, never too slow, never too high. That's not the life. That's when he started talking about rhythm, the big outward and then coming back, and the huge highs and then the you know, and that really resonate especially as enneagram four the idea of just like neutral balance all the time, I'd rather die. But in this rhythm of engaged and withdrawn jumping in and that's that's really compelling.

Seth 25:43

I’ve just dug into the enneagram a bit. What is a four what does that mean?

Aaron 25:47

The enneagram four is the individualist, the romantic, it's all about being authentic. It's all about being unique. We fours think we're the only one's on planet earth like us, even though there's billions of other fours. But yeah, so it's all about kind of identity. Yeah.

Seth 26:09

I apparently have become an eight (Editors note…I’m a five) from what I've been told. And I don't know that I'm happy with that. Because it seem so aggressive.

Aaron 26:16

the world needs 8’s but they're there, they're hard to….

Seth 26:21

I'm glad I'm not married to one because I don't think it would last. So there's a portion of your book, and I like the way that you turn it. So I can't remember what the scripture is. But there's a Scripture that says that, you know, every portion of your congregation is a part of the church body and every part of the body is called to do something. And I've always heard it preached that we keep that in these four walls. That this is the reason that you volunteer basically, it was kind of used as a guilt passage, but you turn it on its head and say, Well, you know, taking it further, it's not just the church members, it's, you know, the Baptist version of Christianity is called for some goodness, and so are Catholics, and so we're, I'm running out of you know, so we're Episcopalians and yeah, and, and, and I love that and I'd never really considered thinking about the church body as big capital C church before.

Aaron 27:12

One of the most kind of transforming things about the last few years along those lines has been, you know, I've grown up, I was a part of a really conservative church upbringing, and then I was a part of a pretty progressive church. And then I was a part of kind of the really mainstream evangelical mega church thing, but all in the Protestant, loosely evangelical thing. And most of my white evangelical friends are either struggling with it or have totally left it. I don't have a lot of white evangelical friends that are like “Yes! These are my people”. And I've been really wrestling with that, and I think we're I'm kind of landing right now is my tradition is really really good but it's only one slice of this huge family this big pie you know it's one little slice. Evangelicalism embodies a lot of truth unless it's forced to be the whole story. And then in my opinion, it's a really bad, really thin, whole story, but it has something to contribute. I've been meeting with a Jesuit priest as a spiritual director last four years. And he would say to me, Aaron, there's a bunch of things about your tradition that are really helping me be a better Catholic, which blows my mind!

Seth 28:48

Like what?

Aaron 28:50

He would say your energy. He said, when I come to your community, people love to sing. He said, “when's the last time you were at a Catholic mass that anyone wanted to sing anything?” And he's like, “I love the exuberance”. He said, “I love the way you, you really seek to personalize your faith and help others personalize their faith”. He would say, “we Catholics need more of that and need to learn from you guy.

And then of course, I can turn it and there are 100 things that I am learning from him and from the Catholic tradition that has been so deepening and enriching, but all that to say, to see our tradition, whatever it is, whatever tradition we grew up in, is not the whole story; if it needs to be the whole story, it's a bad story. But to see it as part, one stream that flows into this big river, then we can kind of honor it for what it is. And we don't have to destroy it when it lets us down because of course it lets its down. It's only one little stream. Does that connect with your experience?

Seth 30:00

It does. And I will say recently and so for those that are listening to show, this won't be a surprise, but I'll kind of briefly relay it for you. So I, what took you three years took me about eight. And it wasn't until my kids were born that I realized my version of Father God was awful that that's what I was modeling. And so the wheels fell off and but I grew up pretty conservative and went to liberty and continued to conservative and what I've come to realize is, how do I want to say this. I still love the parts of my faith that brought me to where I'm at what that foundation was, it doesn't mean that I haven't repaired parts of that building and renovated and made things more, not more fitting with what I think God has but just more fitting with what…just what God is. I find that I learned so much from my Catholic brothers and sisters because they can embrace a different and emotional part of God that I can't connect with. And I learned a lot from the, you know, the Eastern Orthodox and everyone else because they all and I agree with you, they all bring that like, I've recently begun to do kind of a, what's it called Lectio Divina like like, yeah, I can't say the word.

Aaron 31:19

Yeah. Some people say lectio. And some people say, Lexio, and to be honest I’m not sure which it is.

Seth 31:25

So, but just inserting myself into Scripture in a way that, yeah, I hear it. And I read it in a different way. And oddly enough, the thing that got me involved in that had nothing to do with the church. There was a separate podcast, I think, called Harry Potter and the sacred text. And so there's these two seminary people that basically are treating Harry Potter that way, and they just choose a quick paragraph and they were just talking about chapter one now. And so they were treating it in the same way as a as a thought experiment of what you can do this with any texts and you can learn from many things truth that isn't necessarily Biblical. As a pastor, how do you find that is the easiest way to encourage people to get off the bank (of the river)?

Aaron 32:14

Yeah, well, that's a good question. I would say two things and they feel really, really different. An idea from the Scriptures that I've been thinking a lot about recently, especially as I had moved out of my more fundamentalist upbringing, is it's God's goodness, that leads us to repentance. And I think I had grown up and maybe I don't know how many of the listeners and how much of this resonates with your experience that the Christian leaders of my youth thought the best way to get us to change was shame.

Seth 32:57

Shame and fear.

Aaron 33:00

Yeah, absolutely. Shame and Fear. And apparently, that is not the God that Jesus knew and came to reveal. Because it is God's goodness that leads us to repentance.

So I think the first answer to that question how do people get off the shore is invitation- invitation, like the verse we're talking about? Are you tired? Are you worn out? I was had dinner with some friends last night. And we're talking about a number of things and somehow got up if you could say one thing to the world. And for me, it's, there's more like, there's a better way, this thing that we're experiencing, it may be good, and it is good. But there's more.

And so I think that Yeah, the first answer is, is winsome invitation to say if you're feeling like you're your life is dry, bouncing along the rocks, there's a deeper stream, so That's the first one. But the other one in experience, and it happened in my life. And I've seen it happen a lot of other lives. Often we only get into the river after deep pain, or disappointment, or disillusionment, or if I look at my life, some of the biggest moments of finally saying “yes to God”, were after I just cannot drove my car into a wall after some sort of major failure or disappointment or heartbreak.

And I hate that that's true. But it seems to be very true. I don't believe personally, God causes those things. I think God is as heartbroken when Shauna and I had a couple miscarriages in a row. I think God wept with us really, God caused that to teach us a lesson. However, I think in that other heartbreak, I think God was saying him with you. I'm closer than the air you that you are breathing. What is that God is close to the brokenhearted and some things opened up in us in that season that that might not have been able to open up otherwise. So winsome invitation and unfortunately, heartbreak.

Seth 35:27

Yeah. Well, you had asked me before we started recording, well, full disclosure, I started recording just because I needed to check your sound levels.

Aaron 35:31

(ha) great!

Seth 35:33

But (you had asked) what I'd hoped to get out of this (podcast), and then this is, so I told you, it often comes at a later date or during the thing and it's kind of self-therapeutic. So, if I look back at the first five or six months of this show, we talked a lot about Matthew 25 and hospitality and lately and it doesn't seem to matter when they're scheduled to release; obviously, this one will come out close to your book release, t's all about suffering, and lament and so like, like you Quote Professor Soong Chan Rah where he says

theology of celebration is not complete without a theology of suffering.

And I just got to speak to him. And we talked about lament, and American exceptionalism and he's becoming one of my favorite theologians. And then just this week, just this week, the episode is about human trafficking with David Zach from Remedy Drive and The Exodus Road. And he said something similar that I had asked him, you know, how are Christians called to this without getting exhausted? He's like, well, I don't know the answer to that. But I know that my king is the king of sorrows, and that we're called to draw near to that, and that that's where he fixes. You know, that's if we're going to be Christians were called to suffer.

Aaron 36:45

Yeah.

Seth 36:46

And there's a lot of grace in that. And there's a lot of redemption and beauty in that. And there's a lot of pain in that, and honestly, if I'm thinking out loud, right now, that sounds a lot like the cross. There's a lot of grace and redemption and a lot of pain…

Aaron 36:54

…and a lot of pain. About two years ago, we decided we were going to spend all of Lent, the six weeks of Lent, learning how to lament. And one of the things that just inspired it is we were looking at the Psalms. And a third of the Psalms are laments. How many, what percentage of the top 100 worship songs on CCL, are laments?

Seth 37:22I must say, I was in CCI yesterday, I must say, .07%

Aaron 37:28

I think maybe less than that. Maybe 0.0%

Seth 37:31

Well the .07% are the rearrangements of some of the old songs and they're not original works anymore.

Aaron 37:38

Right! So apparently, our forefathers and foremothers believed that a third of our worship needs to be lament, one of my mentor says, never be the kind of church that when, when a funeral happens, you don't have any songs to sing. And that was so profound to me. So we just For six weeks, we're going to learn how to lament. The first week was a vision of lament. Week Two is kind of like a nuts and bolts teaching, what is it? How is it not just complaining what you know what is lament. And then week three was a nine step process of how to write your own Biblical lament. And because it was the practice, we did it. So she taught the first three, and then gave five or six minutes and we all journaled and wrote the first three and then she taught the next three and the way you know, and then week four, we weren't gathering together we are gathering around tables for for the meal. And the invitation was share your lament with this table.

And then week five, we came back and The Brilliance came. I don't know if you're familiar with their music, and they did a full concert of limit and it was….But the reason I bring that up is about a year and a half later we did a look back over the last four years what has been meaningful what has been helpful person after person said, those six weeks learning to lament.

And we just realized again, (and) I can only speak from my kind of Protestant white suburban upbringing no one taught us how to limit in fact if we were feeling sad something was wrong with our faith. Pray more, just worship!

Seth 39:21

You knowing you're doing it wrong.

Aaron 39:24

Toxic to the soul. And it's just another reason I am actually more excited to try to follow Jesus than I was even when I was a kid. Because the path of Jesus makes space for this mean the Beatitudes…Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted; so you can avoid morning if you want to avoid comfort, you know, and so anyways.

Seth 39:51

So reading the book, and, and if y'all haven't picked up yet you need to go buy the book. It is a very good book and I genuinely mean that I don't usually say that on the show unless I think that it is.

Aaron 40:06

And I'm you not paying you that is not from a bribe

Seth 40:10

No bribes involved. I would I yeah, I've read it once be fair, I've read it twice. You do a lot of things that aren't necessarily Western in the new way that you you interact with Christ and some of that is you know, based on Ignation spirituality some of it is based on meditation some of its based on the examen some of its based on Lectio Divina and in the one that got me the most and the one that I've tried to do very poorly. And I don't know if that's part of it is the examen and I think if there's anything that I can see this year and and for the years to come that can maybe impact me the most in a long term way and not some form of behavioral modification way it is that can you walk through kind of what that looks like and then how that informs the way that we worship?

Aaron 41:08

Oh, man. Absolutely. Well, the first thing to notice you're talking about Eastern and Western is like I’m embarrassed to admit how old I was when I first realized that God is not an American. And Jesus was not Western. And Jesus did not look like me. And it's us who are trying to reimagine this way for a totally different context.

Seth 41:37

If I could jump in on that it would actually be the lead singer the brilliance I can't remember his first name, but his brother Michael Gungor, he wrote a song called God is not a man God is not a white man. Yes, it is. I think it was then when I was like, wait, what he say. And it wasn't it. I think there was a part of me that always knew that but I just never cared to think about it.

Aaron 41:55

Yeah. I mean, I think human beings have been making God in their own Image ever since the you know, the very beginning, and we still do it and in some ways that's okay because we were made in God's image, but we just can't reduce God to our specific image.

So anyways, so um oh the examen the examen, let me this is hyperbolic but I really mean it. The Examenhas transformed my life my spiritual life and it's about 1500 years old and it's been around a long time. Nope, it was started in the 1500s, there we go still still a long time longer than a lot of other things and that the insight of the examiner started by St. Ignatius who founded the Jesuit order. And the insight was, God is always working in our lives. But we don't often stop to notice.

And so, St. Ignatius taught, if you're too busy and you can't do any of your other practices, you can't do anything, at least to your examen, to take 15 minutes a day to stop and look back and notice God's fingerprints in our lives. And so the five steps are pretty simple.

The first step is we invite the Spirit to lead us. So it's not just a self reflection exercise. It's a relationship. God would you guide me now as I look back over this last day or last week?

Step two, is to review the day in gratitude. And this was so difficult for me I'm a cynic by nature, I can see what's missing right away. And gratitude often feels like sugarcoating, you know, reality, pretending. But the insight is what you start with you put at the center. And so when you begin with abundance, with gratitude with what's right in the world, it kind of really centers reality on what is true, which is God's goodness and abundance, and then we bring in everything else. So but we start with gratitude that is, again for this melancholy artist that has been transformative.

Step three, is as we review this day in gratitude, we notice different emotions that pop up. So I start with…I woke up this morning, I could barely get out of bed. What was that about? I was so tired at breakfast. Oh, I had that really hard conversation with my wife. Why was I so frustrated? You know, just noticing not judging, just noticing the emotions that pop? I was driving to work and I had such a wonderful feeling of hope for the day. Wow! I wonder what that's about. Just noticing…

Step four is to choose one of those moments, one of those emotions and pray from it. God, that conversation with my wife kind of freaked me out. I don't understand. She said that little thing. And I responded in this huge way let me tell you about it. And then is there anything you have to say about it? And just hold it. Sometimes God, in my experience, sometimes God is like, So, speaking so clearly about something. Sometimes it's like crickets, I don't know. But, but we hold it in God's presence.

And then Step five is to look forward to the future and hope. So what have I learned in this little examen that I can move forward next time I talked to my wife and she says that, um, how do I respond differently? And 15 minutes, once or twice a day, is utterly transformative.

Seth 45:59

How long you've been doing it?

Aaron 46:01

Four years. What What do I do it every day? Absolutely not. I wish I did. Do I do what most days? Yes. And more than that? It is it's starting to seep into everything. It's really interesting. It's started as a very rotes. All right, you step one you just stepped. And now it's kind of the way I interact, you know, laying in bed at the end of the day, even if I hadn't done my exam and quote unquote, I, say I'm going to look back over the day, what was good, was beautiful. What did I think break my heart today? What was that about? And it's just as kind of really affected how I try to engage with God each day. Have you? Have you heard the examen liturgy?

Seth 46:49

Unless you've sung it or it's in your book the answers no.

Aaron 46:53

I'll send it to you. My spiritual director and I Father Michael, we together we partner On this, it's Yeah, it's just an examen liturgy. And it takes, I think the full version is about 25 minutes, walk you through an examen it has some songs in it as it has some music. And then there's also a 10 minute version and a couple other things. But that if, if anybody wants to get that that's on anewliturgy.com. It's called the examen.

Seth 47:25

There is and I don't know if it's a version of examine or not, but one of my favorite things that helps talk me off the ledge is kind of a guided meditation from Michael Gungor and the letter just I think it's called vapor. And oh, yeah, I don't know if you've heard it's like nine minutes long and it starts out with some Middle Eastern chanting. And I find often I find myself going back to that. Why are you so worried about that your student loans, their dust? Yep, it's dust. Yes, stop it settle down. And if I if I found anything that I learned from trying to do the examen is, I get disappointed when I don't hear from God. I feel like that's on me. I'm certain that that's on me. Because I want instant gratification. I guess it gets back to the eight of me if I did this now this I picked this lever this happens. But there's a portion that I love that it makes me slow down. And that's also the portion that I don't like.

Aaron 48:18

Of course, absolutely!

Seth 48:19

I don't want to slow down. I feel like I need to go, go go.

Aaron 48:25

So absolutely.

Yeah, one of my friends who who was teaching me some of these contemplative practices way before I had any idea about any of that. He said, in my experience, the fruit of it is rarely in the moment. But it is unmistakeably in the rest of my life.

So I'll just notice, like, how I just dealt with that person who's been driving me crazy for years, and I was able to smile and bless them, whoa, what happened? Well, what happened to is I've been practicing contemplative prayer for the last six months. And God has done something in me almost unbeknownst to me, you know?

Seth 49:11

And so you are an actual new creation; you a better version of yourself. Or to get a little Greek or you're a new theosis, you know, you're becoming a miniature Christ. You end your book with the phone test and the bookshelf test.

Aaron 49:27

Oh, yeah.

Seth 49:28

What is that, I know what it is because I read it. But for those that haven't had that, and I look at my bookshelf to the left here, what are we getting at when you say, you know, if you're curious where you're at, in, in the stream that you're around and the tribes that you're involved in? What is that bookshelf test and that phone test?

Aaron 49:48

Yeah, those two tests are in the chapter, practicing for the sake of the world. So not just about me and my kind of contemplative inner world, but back to that joining what God's doing redeem and restore all things. And the first one the phone test is something that my friend David Bailey, who started Arabond ministries is just this unbelievable artist and leader, prophetic speaker; basically I think he would say he's trying to help the white church, learn how to participate in reconciliation, specifically in racial reconciliation. And his very simple test this he said, Go back, open up your phone, and look at the last 10 calls you made do they all look the same, how diverse is your inner circle?

Seth 50:38

When I read that I did that. And it was voicemail, voicemail, wife, wife, wife voicemail. So I guess I don't call people.

Aaron 50:50

Oh, yeah, that's right. I mean, how many of us actually do phone calls? So maybe it's text? But when he first said that I looked back. I mean, it was, I think at that moment it was 10 white people. Now are white people bad? Of course not. Is it bad that I would call a white person? No.

What does it say about my life, that my inner circle, especially at that time, was 100% just like me. And what are the potential limitations blind spots? So that's been a question haunting me. And I think the bookshelf test is very similar. I was kind of look back at my bookshelf. All right. In the last 20/50 books I read or whatever, and I realized it's mostly white European men. And again, nothing wrong with white European men, but If that's the only influence in my life, how could I possibly understand the fullness of the kingdom?

And again, I just had to ask what are the profound blind spots of a theology that's only been formed by white European men have have a worldview that's only been formed by white European men? And so I think both those tests are just an invitation to say, all right, who am I not learning from? And how can I get placed myself under them?

Seth 52:43

Correct me if I'm wrong. You list out if you have if you don't have this channel in your life, here are a few people you could go see. I can't remember him off the top my head but I did like that you said, you know, I'm not going to call anybody out basically. But if you feel like you're missing this avenue, here is a handful of people from all walks of life and if you feel like you're missing, you know, a womans viewpoint on the Gospels. Here's a few, so I did appreciate that because I find often people will call you to action and then not point you in the right direction. They'll they'll quiver the arrow and they won't pull the string.

Aaron 53:14

Totally, yeah! One of my goals for the book was I want it to be relentlessly practical. Like if what I'm appealing for is not just beliefs based, but practice based. I better offer some tools right. One example is last fall, I stumbled upon this book by Barbara A Holmes, and it's called Joy Unspeakable and the subtitle is Contemplative Practices of the Black Church. And she just goes back throughout the history of the black church. She starts in slavery, she talks about contemplative practices of the middle passage, and I'm like, my little suburban white guy brain is exploding as she's pulling out all these. I mean, it was. I mean, it might have been the most important book I read last year. Again, just because I didn't know any of this. And I hope now my heart is wider and deeper and I'm humbler, you know, all these things that I realize, I don't even know and didn't even know to ask.

Seth 54:22

I mean, it's been a privilege. I enjoy talking with everyone that is willing to come on to the show. But there are a few that I just for some reason, just I smile the whole time I'm talking with them. And you've hit that list. I've genuinely enjoyed the conversation. Genuinely enjoyed the book, thank you for sending it to me. And then again, for those listening, buy the book, I will link to it in the show notes. We may try to give away a few copies will have to see how that works. And I say we I mean me.

So what would you though, where would you call people to interact with this type of practice? And so where would you send people to learn more about the examen and to engage in this type of of ministry and, and liturgy and practice of our faith, like how would you call it involved?

Aaron 55:07

Oh, that's beautiful. Well, I hope this isn't a cop out. I tried to pack the book with a ton of those real specific resources. So you would end the book with 10 different options. But along those lines, I'd say two things. One is try stuff—do it. Even if it feels weird, try it. Try it for seven days in a row. And when you get to the end of seven days, or 30 days, or whatever it is, when you get to the end, if it doesn't help you connect with God, set it aside. Just be curious, ask, “wow, that didn't really help me”. But keep trying. Keep exploring. Don't give up. Take risks, keep going. And then along those lines, get around people who swim in a different part of the river that then you do call up the Jesuit retreat center and say hey I’ve never done spiritual direction is there a spiritual director who'd be willing to meet with me? Or start with the book start with anything Richard Rohr has ever written if you've never read or learn from a Catholic start with Richard Rohr, either Everything Belongs or Falling Upward is unbelievable; or swimming underwater the 12 steps I mean, start with anything Richard Rohr ever read, but get around people who swim in a different part of the river than you do.

Seth 56:43

Yeah. Where can people follow you and if they want to, as I read as they listen, I like hey, I want to say thank you or call you out or disagree or whatever. Where would where would you send them to?

Aaron 56:53

I always love to connect. So even if you disagree, I'd love to hear it.

My website is Aaronniequist.com and that has that's kind of a central place. But I'm on both Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, Aaronieq and I would love to hear from you. And then the other website I mentioned was anewliturgy.com and that's where a number of my liturgical recordings are at.

Seth 57:28

I thought that in ending in closing, it would be appropriate to have a brief prayer, and we'll share this with Aaron and if this prayer speaks to you, I will say it's at the end of the book. But here we are, our voices raised together, lifted to God. Let's pray.

Music 57:58

Please, speak

Aaron 58:02 - leading in prayer as joices join in

Eternal creator and lover of all you have made. Thank you for life, breath and the invitation of Christ to get swept up in your your work of healing and restoring all things. In this moment, I say yes to your eternal current. I say yes to God to the Kingdom of God. I say yes to your unforced rhythms of grace for the sake of the world.

Please, teach me how to swim.

Please receive me in all my brokenness and glory, and teach me to swim. I pray this humbly and boldly, in the name of the Father, the name son, in the name of the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Seth Outro 59:05

There's a lot, a lot to take in. And it's a big conversation to have thinking about God in a way that is so true if you just think about it, but so often we don't sit down and realize that we don't invite God here, God is already here. We join into that. If we can get off the bank, things are going to be fine. That that current, as raging as it is, that is salvation, and that is creation, and that is loss and mourning and happiness and sadness and any other emotion that we so pitifully. Try to give words to that current is all encompassing, and it is graceful. And it's warming, for lack of a better metaphor. I would encourage you, if you're not familiar with the examine, I have been trying to do it over The past few months. It is hard, but it does get easier. And it is self revealing. And it's a new lens that I'm thankful for. Please remember, as you finish this episode, please like and review the show on iTunes that helps tremendously to our new Patreon supporters, to Tyler to Elizabeth. Thank you so much. If you have not yet become a part of that community, please do so it is not a large commitment for an impact that you cannot understand. I appreciate each and every one of you be well.

I'll talk to you next week.

Seth 1:00:52

The music that you heard today is from volume six, called the examine from a new liturgy You can find all of those tracks listed in the show notes. Links to purchase that album, as well as you can hear the ones in today's episode on the Can I Say This At Church, Spotify playlist.