Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Rabbi Moffic 1:26

I believe faith and wisdom are tied together with one another. That doesn't mean you have to be a person of faith in order to be happy. I think there are lots and lots of good people in the world who are not people of faith. But at least for me, and for what I believe God intended us for, how we are created faith that this world has a meaning of purpose and that we are here for a reason. I think that is a bedrock of wisdom.

Seth 2:13

Hello, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast. Today's interview is with someone of a different faith, which I find exciting and enticing. And I think if there's anything that I could do better, and anything that I have learned from doing this show, it is to engage those of other faiths that no one really has a stronghold on 100% clarity what is true, and that there's so much that we can learn from each other and that is the same interfaith as it is in true faith. And by that I mean I can learn from a Lutheran or learn from a Presbyterian or learn from a Catholic just as much as I can learn someone that follows from Judaism or Buddhism. Before we get started, thank you to those that have rated the show on iTunes, Please continue to do so. Those, we've had a few of the the feedback has been tremendous, especially from those of you in other countries. I love seeing how the show is impacting you and how it's challenging you as it is me. Please consider going to patreon.com slash Can I Say This At Church or to the website and you'll find a link there and support the show as little as $1 a month goes way further than you believe that it would. Enough about that.

Today's guest is Rabbi Evan Moffic. He at age 30 became one of the youngest people to become the lead Rabbi of Congregation Solel in Chicago. He regularly appears on many news media's he's a commentator on Israel and both on political and social events. He comes with a lot of knowledge and with a lot of humility. Today's conversation is centered around the concept of the happiness prayer, which is based on ancient Jewish text. And so we don't ever list those in the podcast and so I would like to list those here and then we will Get on into it. So those are 10 basic things that that as we pray we should keep in mind and that is how we give honor to those who gave us life. Being kind, continual learning, inviting others into our life, that we make it a point to be there when others need us we celebrate the good times. And I think that's key. We always bypass that we move on to quickly. We also limit and move on to quickly support yourself and others during times of loss. We need to pray with intention, learn to forgive and look inside and commit. And so I really hope that you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Here we go.

Seth 4:56

Rabbi Moffic thank you so much for taking the time to come on to the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I'm excited for today's conference. And I'm excited for the topic, specifically about prayer. What is a bit of your background, sort of your upbringing? And then how has that impacted the way that you do ministry today?

Rabbi Moffic 5:11

Thanks Seth, it’s an honor to be on, on your podcast and to talk with you. And I've enjoyed our conversation so far. But my background is, I grew up in Houston, Texas, actually. And in a fairly, not very active Jewish Home, we belonged to a synagogue, I actually ended up going to a Jewish Day School more as a just because it was the best school in the area, than my parents had a very strong commitment to the synagogue, but it ended up that I went to the Jewish day school.

And it was just a wonderful experience. And I grew up with Rabbis that I really looked up to, and I saw them as role models of what a religious leader could be. And so the synagogue where I grew up with the prayer (there) was very formal, actually, probably the closest parallel would be almost like to an Episcopal or an Anglican Church, in the Protestant tradition. So it was more formal prayer more than I do today. But it did give me a sense of kind of the power and majesty of prayer, and a sense that in certain settings, we can connect with God more closely, and that there was a sense of a transcendent, awesome, God.

I still distinctly remember parts of that religious service that really moved and inspired me. So I grew up with a model of more formal prayer kind of high church. And even though some people have rebelled against that, a lot of that power in grandeur I think stayed with me.

Seth 6:47

So I grew up mostly as Baptist and things were not very liturgical, for lack of a better word. And I've recently fallen in love with just the liturgy of some of the older prayers and Not that I know Latin nor that nor do I have the time to learn it. But I have fallen in love with the discipline that it takes to take your time and think about what you're saying. I find so often when I pray, it's extremely selfish. It's “I need this, I need this. Let's figure out how to get me this, this will make my life better”. Which I think leads to a bad outcome and expectation a bad binary of what prayer should be.

Rabbi Moffic 7:29

Yes. Yes, there's a power in the tradition. There's a power in the liturgy. Now it shouldn't be everything. There's time for personal prayer and introspection, but the liturgy is a time tested thousands of years. And there's a there's a connection that we can make to the liturgy that brings us out of ourselves.

Seth 7:49

And so now you are, you are the lead Rabbi of a congregation in Chicago, correct?

Rabbi Moffic 7:55

Yeah, yes.

Seth 7:56

Is there and this is where I'm going to show my ignorance is there a large Jewish following in Chicago?

Rabbi Moffic 8:02

Yes, yes. We're one of the biggest Jewish communities in the country. So the biggest Jewish community is in New York City and surrounding environments. And that's been true for since Jews came to America, essentially because most were immigrants. And they came right by the Statue of Liberty and many ended up staying in New York City.

So NYC is the largest population in Los Angeles is the second largest. And I believe Chicago. I think we're the third, it might be South Florida; South Florida has a tremendously large Jewish population. But Chicago is one of the largest Jews have tended to be in big cities. I mean, there are certainly rural Jewish populations. In fact, when I was a student I served a congregation in rural Louisiana so there are some smaller Jewish community but the folk are in the big cities.

Seth 8:59

Just curious. Before we get into the the conversation of her Why do you think that is? There's got to be some reasoning behind that.

Rabbi Moffic 9:06

Well, I think part of it is, is it's natural for immigrant groups, that when you immigrate, you tend to go and be around people like you. And when immigrants came the jobs, you know, that immigrants could get were in the big cities, you know, they were the the low paying jobs, the the tradesmen and factory workers.

And so I think it was kind of a combination of economics, that when immigrants came, the only jobs they could get were jobs that were generally in big cities. And then when other immigrants came, they wanted to be around people they knew and that were like them, so they stayed in the big cities. And, so it was kind of a phenomenon and that's true with Irish. With Italian, I mean, not as much sort of as…it's changing as the Jewish community, the immigrant experience, is sort of more fading, you know, it's really more towards the beginning of the 20th century, that kind of focus on the cities diminishes a little bit. But it was all of those various factors kind of combined to, to bring Jews towards more urban areas.

Seth 10:20

And it makes sense everyone wants to feel like they can more easily fit in where they live. It's just…it's just easier. So getting to your book. So I have enjoyed very much your book, I find that I don't dwell enough on prayer. And usually, as I alluded to a minute ago, usually when I pray, it's it's for selfish reasons, because I find myself busy. And in a moment of honesty, that sounds extremely bad, but Okay, that's fine. So the title of the book is, is the happiness prayer, ancient Jewish wisdom for the best way to live today. And, and so there's a part of me that when I hear that title, I understand we're going to talk about something ancient which extremely old, there's going to be wisdom involved. But what is the happiness prayer?

Rabbi Moffic 11:06

Well, it's a prayer, in the sense that we say it during a worship service. But it's not a prayer in the traditional sense of it being asking God for something. So let me take a step back and sort of talk about the Jewish understanding of prayer.

So Jewish prayer is very liturgical. And one could say, and I'm not using this in a negative tone at all, it's more legalistic in the sense that there are certain prayers that you're supposed to say certain texts that come from the book of Psalms that come from other books in the Bible, and that comes from the Talmud, which is an ancient Jewish sort of wisdom and legal text. And the people who put together the Jewish liturgy they were mainly sages. They chose different parts of each of these books that choose should say, at each worship service.

And so one the texts that they chose is what I call the Happiness Prayer. Now, it's not technically called the happiness prayer, that was my kind of reading of it. It doesn't really have a technical name. A lot of people know it by the first Hebrew words, which ….. but this is a text that comes from the Talmud. And it said every morning in a traditional Jewish worship service, it's read every morning. And it says these are the actions whose worth can be measured. And they lead to a good life here and in the afterlife. And, they're honoring father, mother acts of loving kindness, diligent pursuit of knowledge and wisdom, hospitality to wayfarers, visiting the sick, celebrating with bride and groom, and there's a couple more; there 10 of them. And I believe that in a way, because they are included in a Jewish worship service, they constitute a prayer, even though by the if we want to technically define prayer as asking God for something, or invoking God, to achieve something, it doesn't fit that category. Does that makes sense.

Seth 13:23

It does. So I want to lean into some of those. But before I do, as I was reading your book, and I've also read another book this year, and the two seem to overlap, I can't, I can't think that you're not familiar with the work of Diana Butler Bass. And I read a book that she wrote on gratitude. And there seems to be a big correlation between what she was saying, from a perspective of being grateful, but not in a subservient way not in a quid-pro-quo. Not in a I did this for you so now you owe me something.

But to turn that on its head that you know in God is an abundance of gracefulness and abundance of a wealth of open arms and just come and take, come and be a part of me. And and that there is no expectation there, as we as followers of whatever our religion is that you now owe me something, you know? And I read a lot of that gratefulness and a lot of that, that same mentality in this, in your book, and in this prayer. So I'm curious if you can talk a bit about why you think that is or kind of what that what that underlying thread is?

Rabbi Moffic 14:35

I think that's a great observation. Well, I think gratitude is a core part of happiness. There. It's because in a way, it's almost a psychological effect. When we focus on what we have, rather than what we don't have; when we desire, we are just naturally more satisfied, because we have what we need. You know, and the natural human inclination is many ways, always want more and more and more, especially in our consumer culture. I mean, in consumer culture, which is, you know, created the iPhone and has done wonders for the world. And it's, it's wonderful. But it also relies on cultivating human desire.

Which makes us unhappy until we get the next thing we want. So gratitude refocuses us on what we already have. Now, I see Diana Butler Bass’ point, which is very interesting that gratitude shouldn't be about getting something out of it. It should be a kind of senseless gratitude, that we're simply grateful not so that we feel happier, but because we have what we need.

I think she also points to a broader problem with both prayer and the search for happiness. One of the things I've talked about, what happiness is, when we actually go after happiness, we don't achieve it. You know, it's like happiness is almost a byproduct of doing certain things well. So I think gratitude, we feel most grateful when we don't want to get something out of being grateful. It's one of the paradoxes of this. So I think she points that out really well.

Seth 16:18

So as a Christian, why should one of my chief concerns be or especially in the Jewish faith, why should I be concerned with happiness? Do I have any claim to being happy?

Rabbi Moffic 16:31

Ah, great question. Well, I believe passionately, that God desires us happy. That we are created to find meaning and fulfillment in life, that life isn't about suffering. Although suffering is a part of life we all tragedy is part of life. We live we die, people we love die. But that God created us as an act of benevolence, and we can find true meaning and purpose in the world. It's not happiness in the sense of pleasure. Although pleasures fine, there's that, you know, inappropriate boundaries. But it's happiness in the sense of we are meeting our purpose as creations of God. We use our brain, we express our faith.

And I think the evidence is really there. I mean, prayer makes us happier. When we pray, and we feel a sense of gratitude. We are more satisfied human beings, and we achieve more, we are able to share our faith and in deeper ways. So I really believe that God created us in this way to find happiness through the right pursuit of happiness. There's a lot of wrong pursuit of happiness. There's happiness which it is hedonism. There's happiness where it's just purely self gratification. That's the wrong kind of happiness. I think God designed us for a true happiness and that's a lot of what our prayers are text our traditions are meant to guide us towards.

And I happen to think that sometimes the great scholars of religion, the theologians, they may not have been aware that people were seeking happiness. I mean, life was a lot more difficult 100 years ago, even 200 years ago, you know. So the notion of searching for happiness, where we could have a lot of our basic needs met that didn't occur to people. I mean, it occurred to a few, but it wasn't a widespread possibility 100 or 1000 years ago. But I think now as we live in the wealthiest time in human history, a lot of our basic needs can be fulfilled, that we can, in a way draw on some of the deeper parts of our faith tradition, to search for happiness. And I think, I think our text indicates that God wants us to do so. I mean over and over in the book of Psalms, there's a word that appears called “asher”, which literally means happy fulfilled.

Seth 19:35

To draw on, you know, past knowledge. What then besides the Scriptures, how can we seek out those that have…I want to say this right so when I think about wisdom, and so I am a middle aged American, and I have kids that are under 10 and I am constantly reminded each day how bad of a dadd I am and I screw up mostly with my son And so as we're seeking to have a life, my sons, my oldest and so as we're seeking to have a life that we can, that we can learn, to be grateful and learn from our, you know, from our parents and from and from everything else, what is what is the difference, but how do I get wisdom without screwing up first?

Rabbi Moffic 20:19

It's a lifelong quest. I think we need to have teachers that we trust. I think faith is a basic part of it. I really, and this is where I may differ from psychologists who teach at universities where faith isn't a core part of their mission and their identity as a person. I believe faith in wisdom are tied together with one another. That doesn't mean you have to be a person of faith in order to be happy. I think there are lots and lots of good people in the world who are not people of faith, but at least for me, and for what I believe God intended as for how we're created, safe, that this world has meaning a purpose and that we are here. for a reason, I think that is a bedrock of wisdom. So we have to start with a sense of faith. And faith also gives us permission, we're not going to be perfect. In fact, perfection isn't a real idea. Perfection is. It's almost a it's a great concept of there being this perfect ideal world. I don't think that perfection there such I mean, God is perfect. But I don't think that there's a human sense of perfection. So I think we have to start with faith.

And then we have to have teachers that we trust, and that are seek to tradition, and that can help guide us through faith. And that's what our wisdom traditions are, therefore, I mean, the fact that this is an ancient prayer, an ancient text, to me, gives it a certain kind of legitimacy. Not that there's not that some of the new insights and positive psychology and research are uncovering enormously important things, but in many ways, I believe the ancients got alive. things right, so seeping ourselves in ancient texts and traditions that have had time tested ways of guiding people towards a more meaningful life. That, to me is a great source of wisdom. So I think being rooted in faith, and being rooted in certain traditions and texts, gives us a leg up. And then we just have to have to keep, keep getting through the failures, because, you know, I'm a dad to of two young kids and, and I mess up all the time. But I try to really stay true to my purpose and stay true to the values that I know ultimately makes for a more meaningful life.

Seth 22:43

I am curious what positive psychology is, but before that, you said something that I didn't write this question down, but I am now and I now want to know more about that. So if we think about there's wisdom and other ancient text, as a Christian or as a Jew, what can we take as truth from sacred texts that are not of our same faith tradition, or should we even involve ourselves in that?

Rabbi Moffic 23:06

Yeah, I think that is a…that is a difficult question. And I think people of goodwill will come to two different answers. For that question, it kind of depends on one's own personal bent. This is very important question, should we consult packs that aren't our own traditions? I believe the answer is yes. And I think some people, there are some Christians who I'm close with who are on the more evangelical side, and there is a passionate belief that every answer to all of life's questions can be found in the New Testament. And I respect that point of view of faith. And I think it's powerful for a lot of people. But I think that God gave us so many sources of wisdom.

There's a beautiful Jewish legend. That's says it's asked the question How is God different from a coin maker? A coin maker creates something and the answer is when a coin maker mins coins, they all come out the same. But when God created human beings, we all came out differently. And so I think that there's a beauty in a divine purpose in having different people and different face. So that's why I think it's good to study ancient text.

Now we should show with a mind towards true fulfillment towards having a kind of understanding that we cannot really know fully a tradition when we are not of it. There there is a AE film that we need. So when I go, let's say, I'm going to go and look at parts of the New Testament, which isn't my Bible, but it's such an important document. I would like to talk with a pastor, before I go in and believe that, you know, I can glean necessary wisdom.

I think in many ways we need guides, who can help us through that that guide could be a good book, by a trusted author. It could be a pastor, but we, in some ways in America, this is part of our tradition, that we kind of believe we can take the best parts of every single religious tradition and kind of create our own. This was a sociological phenomenon that that people wrote about in the 80s and 90s. But I don't think that's true. I think each religion has a kind of authenticity on its own, and we can learn from other religions, but we should learn thoughtfully and with the right guides. Does that make sense?

Seth 25:57

Does it does no and I find that encouraging. I spoke with him I don't know if you're familiar with Alexander Shaia, and he said, he said stuff similar that you know, I can spend time with Buddhist or spend time with Brahmans and learn from the way that they interact with creation, and with, you know, the divine, and then take the best parts of that and still worship Jesus, but just in a different way. And I'm reminded of a badly placed metaphor of the term ecumenism where you know, the each, if we look at each person as a different part of the body of the church, you know, that fundamentalists or evangelicals or Jewish or ever, everyone has a role to play, but that's hard to ride that line between that and syncretism. Which it is a hard it's a hard line to ride.

I don't often read a theology book and learn about the Cubs. And so I wanted to end on two questions because I know your your time is running short and, and I want to be respectful of that. So most of the time when people talk about prayer and the Cubs, or prayer and the Red Sox, or anything else, it's mostly just to overcome a curse. And so, can you talk a bit about where you were going at when you talk about the Cubs? And and the way that impacts a happiness prayer or or the way that we go about praying?

Rabbi Moffic 27:15

Ah, interesting question. So, I believe so, you know, it was kind of tongue in cheek in a way to use the Cubs example. But part of it was I, first of all religion in baseball people people have a deep faith in their teams and in people and and especially in Chicago. But I also looked at the way the Cubs had played; and their strategy as

(someone speaking to Rabbi)

Sorry about that. Sorry about that. So their strategy was very simple and disciplined. They did a lot of little things well, and I think that that's ultimately, what a happy life is in a life of faith. It's not about the grand experiences. You know, you think about it, people who, let's talk about a born again, experience, or people have a have an amazing religious experience. And they suddenly say, I'm going to go to church now all the time. And then they come for like one or two, I'm sure this is a phenomenon in the church, the come for a couple times, and then life gets back to normal, right? And they don't go at all. There's probably lots and lots of examples of that in the same is true in Judaism.

Versus somebody who commits to a path of life and they do it simply and diligently and consistently, and that ultimately, I believe, is what makes for a happier life and a more honest, faithful life. It's the little things that we do well over and over again. And so that's how the Cubs won ultimately, is they they developed a strategy where they, they didn't look for the superstar sluggers they weren't all about the best shortstop and first baseman they were what are the things that we can do well and consistently? So to me, it was just a great model for how a life of faith can work and evolve.

Seth 29:31

My final question which which will lead us hopefully to the end is at least in the faith tradition that I was brought up in when I here on so you you write

honor those who gave you life

and I hear that is Honor your father and mother you talk about? So the way I usually hear that is, it's a command like no, you will respect me and i i old the authority here, and so what I say is what happens and I'm sorry if you don't like it. I don't know that. I believe that but that's how I hear it all. And that's even honestly how its portrayed in a lot of media, on a lot of TV or in a lot of movies. And it's used to a detrimental way, like it usually causes some form of harm.

And so I was hoping that you could talk a bit about, you know, honor versus love as we think about our relationship with our parents or with with people beyond that our grandparents or other people that that somehow are giving a version of life to us.

Rabbi Moffic 30:24

Wow, that's a great question and a very interesting question.

So I think sometimes people confuse respect with authority and being an authoritarian. So the truth is, yes, we do owe our parents a kind of honor and respect. And that that's part of part of how God created us, God created with parents, who gave us life in that life deserves that, that that gift of life deserves a kind of honoring, and yet there are also obligations on parents as well. Parents have an obligation in Judaism, that they have an obligation to teach their children a tradition, they have an obligation to teach their children trade. And they have an obligation to teach their children how to survive in a way.

And so parents and children both have responsibilities. In Judaism love is about actions. It's not as much of an emotion although it is an emotion, but it's about the actions that we do that show that love. So love is certainly a part of it. But as anyone knows, if you’re pastor and just a human being in life, life is complicated, sometimes situations aren't as ideal as they should be. But even if the love bond between parents and children has diminished, you still owe your parents some sort of respect and honor and and what that means is different. Right, it's not always a, it's not always a totally defined way. But, you know, if you have a parent who's living on the street, and you can help provide them shelter, even if they weren't the best parents, that's what you owe them is one example. There are many others. But to me, it's not really about authority. It's about the kind of basic human respect to the gift of life.

Seth 32:26

And I'd like to end with this question.

If you could remake it. So you've obviously gained wisdom, you are good at what you do. You have the benefit of a spouse, that's also you know, a minister and a counselor. And so if you could take everything that you've learned, think about the people that you are charged with with shepherding, what would you remake about the happiness prayer? Is there anything that you would add or take away or or nuance in a way that you haven't seen it done in the past; and with that in mind, thinking, you know, 400 years down the road, you know, someone's still going to have your book. And so if you could do it again and remake any portion of it, is there anything that you would tweak at all?

Rabbi Moffic 33:07

Yes, actually, I would.

And this is somewhat counterintuitive to the, towards the beginning of our conversation where we were talking about prayer and prayer bringing us outside of ourselves. I would actually add a commandment, or a part of the prayer, that focuses more on our internal well being.

When this prayer was written 2000 years ago, the notion of an individual was not really, people were really defined by their groups, and by their community, and everything was about your people-your tribe. And there's nothing about individual well being think about. You know, that I think was not on the minds of the Rabbi's who wrote this prayer. So I believe that real happiness, real well being, requires something sort of self care and, and self awareness. It could be journaling, it could be working out, it could be taking time for ourselves and in other ways. And I don't think that that that wasn't included at all on this prayer and I would include it now. I think in our culture today, we tend to err more towards the self centered side. So I think in many ways that the Jewish tradition is a good counterweight towards that, but I think if I could rewrite an ideal template, a prayer for happiness, it would include some measure of self care.

Seth 34:40

In closing, where would you direct people to Rabbi as as they want to engage in this work and I will say, to pray in a contemplate of way, on an a purposeful way is harder than you would expect if you've never tried to do it. And so where would you point people to for for avenues to get into involved. Obviously, if you if you listening to this and it sparks any anything in you that you feel any at all curious, I would recommend highly go and get the book. We have only scratched the surface and a few of these questions and I have multiple more pages of questions that we won’t answer today. So where would you point people to either engage with you or engage in this kind of work?

Rabbi Moffic 35:21

Well, they can certainly visit my website. It's very simple. It's Rabbi.me, and I'll be happy to engage to, you know, you can send me an email, I would love to be in touch. And this is a synagogue, read up on Judaism there. There's a lot. I really passionately believe that the more we can engage and learn about others, the deeper we can feel comfortable in our own faith. I think God made us to learn and to grow and show that I would encourage people to explore.

Seth 36:01

Well, thank you again Rabbi.

Rabbi Moffic 36:04

Thanks Seth, it’s great talking with you.

Seth 36:16

Raise your hand. If you feel like you do prayer and you understand prayer. Well, if you're like me, your hand is not raised. But I'm learning that prayer changes you. As I look into it, and I research it and I prepare for other talks. There's something psychologically, physiologically internal, that happens regardless of our faith vs. Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, it doesn't matter when we meditate when we intentionally pray. It affects the way that we live and do life.

And so if you take nothing else away from today, I hope that you hear that. be intentional. Prayer can make us entirely more grateful, more humble. patient, you know, those Beatitudes, that prayer can help us do that better, is when we pray. We tap into a part of ourselves that we don't normally listen to. I'm ever grateful to all the supporters of the show in any way that you do. So thank you so much. You are the engine that drives the conversations that happen here on the Can I Say This At Church podcast.

The music in today's episode was provided with permission from the band West of Here that an EP come out earlier this year. I like it, something about it reminds me of anthem type rock. And so I would encourage you to listen to that album. Get it if you'd like it's available at a lot of places noise trade, west of your band.com and as well as the Spotify playlist for Can I Say This At Church.

Talk with you next week.