Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Derek 0:00

The word Christian when applied to anything other than a human being is a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. And it's not that marketing terms are bad or that they are not helpful, they are helpful. They're very helpful. Because what they do is they help us to find our way to what we wish to consume and culture marketing terms. They put little signs on things so we can find our way to what we're looking for. That's not a problem. The problem comes with the way that most people use the term Christian when applied to things other than people. It tends to mean of all the things “this thing” is right, true, good, beautiful, vetted for your spiritual nourishment, whatever it is. The idea of being coming to our “Christian”, I'm using air quotes bookstore and consume, it will just leave your discernment at the door because everything in here is right, true, good, beautiful. It's, it's at least more right, the presumption the unspoken promise is, that it's at least more right or more good or true or beautiful, then all that now I'm using air quotes against “secular” stuff that's out there. So you should consume this instead.

Seth Intro 1:22

Glad you're here. It's a new week, another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast. I am Seth, your host. I'm just telling you right now, I have never been more thrilled with the iTunes reviews. With the interaction and engagement online. Some of y'all are entirely too funny and more snarky, if that's possible than myself. And I applaud that, and I appreciate that. So thank you for that to those that are liking the show. Even 1% please consider going to Patreon and support the show. I have so many more plans for this year and for the years to come. None of those plans will pay for themselves and so if you feel led at all, or convinced all that this hour that you dedicate to each week or so is worth $1 a month. Please consider doing that. You'll find that link www.patreon.com/Can I Say This At Church or at the website? Can I Say This At Church com.

Today's guest is a favorite of mine. And I'll be honest, I tried not to fan out too much while I was talking to him, so I got to talk with one of my musical heroes Derek Webb. That name may not be familiar to all of you, but I can promise you Derek will be so Derek has sold millions of albums. He was one of the founding members of the Christian rock band Caedmons Call he quite frequently ruffles many feathers and he is one of the most honest artists that is I think currently making music especially when dealing with personal struggles and faith in deconstruction and reconstruction and God and Marriage and children and everything. And so his music is both a blessing and a curse to my life and so I very much enjoyed being able to talk with him a bit about grief and doubt and anxious and church, and just everything else in between. I think that you'll love it. I know I loved it. Let's get into it.

Seth 3:30

Derek, thank you so much for joining the the Can I Say This At Church podcast, and as I prepared for talking with you, as I just alluded to a minute ago, I’m gonna try my best not to become just a fan talking to someone that they've looked up to for a while.

Derek 3:43

If I do my job, right, it's not going to be possible. I'm not gonna allow for it. Like I will remedy that

Seth 3:50

I will say, every album, you and I get divorced, and then the longer I sit in it

Derek 3:57

We get back together

Seth 3:58

the more that I'm like, you know…your my Ezekiel.

Derek 4:02

Oh man. Well, I appreciate you sticking with me. I don't always make it easy.

Seth 4:08

So yeah, well, faiths not easy and music shouldn't be either. I want to know…talk to me a bit about just Fingers Crossed. It's. And for those listening if it came out in 2017, late 2017. Derek, it's an entirely different album. And I think it'll inform a lot of the conversation as we go through today. Yeah, kind of just tell me, what does that record actually mean? Like, what are you trying to accomplish here?

Derek 4:33

Yeah, well, well, that's actually a simpler question then you might realize, I mean, because the only thing I'm ever trying to accomplish on records is to look at the world and describe it. I kind of feel like that's the job description of an artist, of any artist, is to look at the world tell us what you see. That's the job. And so that's really the only like, as I've looked back on old records and stuff like I don't…I don't have anything I'm any mission. I've never really felt like I've had some agenda or something I've been trying to accomplish so much as to honestly and vulnerable as I can to look at the world describe it for people. And so that's what I was trying to do.

And it took me the record took me it was not the longest break I've ever taken between records, but it was at least a tie for the longest break I've ever taken between records. And it was the longest break I've ever taken between records where I was not playing music and touring. I took a real break I took a pretty hard break, you know, about four years ago and so this was like the first record back after a pretty long time and part of my hang up was and maybe this is getting around to a more reasonable answer actually, now that I think about it, but you know, my hang up for a long time was it I just wasn't sure how to describe the world that I was seeing.

I wasn't sure how to do it and I got a little bit of a block trying to figure out how to describe the world as I saw it and and really honestly having mixed feelings about whether or not anybody would be interested in hearing about the world as I described it because I had a you know, I had a hard couple of years I'm going through a divorce I you know, so and I think there were probably some some conflicts and disappointment maybe some complicated feelings. So I wasn't really sure how to re approach it at all and for there was a hot minute there with that I wasn't sure if I would make another record I mean, you know, I…I'm an adult now I'm not a you know, a 20 year old kid like I was Caedmons. Like I'm you know, and I have other it's, you know, touring and making records is the only thing I do it's the thing from which everything else I do comes ,that's for sure, because all my other work is music related.

You know, I started Noisetrade ran that business for some years that And we sold it a few years ago and I have a few other kind of ancillary businesses all music related, mostly music related. So I stayed busy and I do other things and, but that's why I wasn't sure I would even make another record I wasn't sure I could, that I that it made sense and mo it finally got me on stuck was when I realized that going through what I had gone through, and primarily I'm talking about my divorce and also a kind of a, a hard season of spiritual deconstruction. Like really, you know, taking into account and taking some inventory of some things, and kind of deciding what rang true to me and what didn't, and just kind of starting to just kind of pulling on the thread to see where it went. I felt it was important for me to do that. I guess more for anybody to do that and not to fully deconstruct what to pull the thread. Don't be afraid of following Your fears or your doubts ever and because either there's something true and real behind it that can withstand all the thread pulling you do or there's not and you should know either way.

And so as I was doing that and looking for music looking for comfort and accompaniment and soundtrack there was just hardly any; like there was just really hardly any music about those seasons about about vertical / horizontal divorce there was there were hardly any records about about that and I was really looking and I found a few.

I've got a buddy named Dave Bazan who was in a band called Pedro the Lion and his musics always been very comforting for the for the vertical divorce. He's written pretty faithfully about that and has some very, you know, thoughtful and very loving I think a soundtrack provided for that. The other, horizontal side, I only found a few records that I and I wasn't really connecting too much and so the point of trying to make is, I realized, you know, the reason I should go through with this and push through and figure out how to make this record, how to write and record this record, as difficult as it was the time is because there are people like me, who are now have or someday we'll go looking for soundtrack when they are going through something really hard in order to know that they're not alone, and they're going to have a hard time finding it as I'm having.

And my creative mo tends to be what I need and can't find I make. And so that's always been how I've navigated my creative life. And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to do it I'm going to do it, if only for the people again, who are going to need it. I mean, like I've always said, I don't make music for everybody. I'm just not that kind of artists. In fact, I hardly make music for anybody.

I mean, like my musics hardly for anybody.

Seth 9:57

Whats that day about me (jokingly)?

Derek 9:57

Well, that means there's resonance in our stories, that means we've got something common to where you and I have a connection and that's why we're here. But like my music isn't for…it's only for people who have some deep resonance with my story. I mean that's what I figured out over many years. Either a resonance with my wiring in the way that I think or the way that I the questions that I asked and not necessarily my conclusions, or my literal story…I don't know. But the people who it is for it's really for, and I also don't make music for all the time, I make music for hardly any of the time. Like I don't make records you typically just put on a dance to like I make records that you need and desperate moments or in particular and peculiar moments, but again, during those moments, it can be a real bullseye.

And so I just thought, you know what, I need to do this for people. I need to go through with it and need to go through the exercise of it in order that people who wind up in situations like I have and go looking for soundtrack and can't find it that there's at least one more record out there. And that's honestly the thing that eventually, so maybe that's what I hope to accomplish. Maybe that's what the record is ultimately about is an effort for people who are going through hard things to not feel alone, I think maybe.

Seth 11:10

Yeah, I agree. And I think that there are, Derek, I think there are more of those people than you would think, because I see the numbers and the country's demographics for this show. And that's pretty much all that I do is ask those questions. So yeah…

Derek 11:28

I think you may be right. I think that anytime that we find or run into a moment like that, I always think well, you know, if this is a solution for me, they're probably more people than I realize who are like me, looking for this and not finding it. I mean, that's honestly…I don't want to derail us into business talk but but you know, that's why I started Noisetrade is because in 2006, or whatever it was, I was looking for a way to give music away for free for data. I was looking for a way to, you know, to connect with my fans, and get emails, zip codes, and there was no platform for me to do that so we made some friends made it. What I realized is if that's a need that I have, I'm probably not the only one and so that's why like you should always be primarily listening to your gut, you know and I think that's what brought this record out i think you know so ultimately that's that's my you know that's got to be my answer.

Seth 12:26

Yeah, I have a handful of albums that sometimes if I want to listen to them and do it right, and I would count Fingers Crossed amongst that but there's a few others like Ghost Upon the Earth from Gungor and the North Star from Remedy Drive, I don't know if you've heard their most recent…

Derek 12:46

I don't know that record but I know those guys I know that I know their reputation.

Seth 12:50

I actually had the privilege to talk to David a few days ago. I have no idea when this will air but a few days ago and he was like no I didn't see any he said very similar. Like I didn't see any songs about people talking about, well, if you call yourself a Jesus, all I see is your self righteous apathy. And you're making a whore of the entire that I'm not a commodity and neither is this. And sex trafficking is a real thing.

Derek 13:15

So he's processing a lot of those complicated things as well.

Seth 13:17

Yeah. But it's an album that you can't just turn on the radio, have my eight or nine year old in the back and be like, no, we're good. We're good.

Derek 13:25

My kids don't listen to my records. My kids are 9 and 10. It's just because it's not appropriate for them. It's adult music. It's adult themes. It's, it's why we don't watch PG 13 movies.

Seth 13:36

Well, let’s be honest, the Bible's mostly adult themes, and they just get dumbed down so

Derek 13:42

Yes it is actually. It’s fascinating that they don't put them behind the counter. It's crazy and fascinating to me that they sell them right on the shelf for any kid; anybody can grab one. Yeah, I've always thought that was fascinating.

Seth 13:50

Yeah, do you would you still call yourself a Christian artist?

Derek 13:56

Well, here's a couple of thing about that is I've never called myself a Christian artist. What I've always said about that is that the word Christian when applied to anything other than a human being is a marketing term. It doesn't mean anything. And it's not that marketing terms are bad or that they're not helpful. They are helpful. They're very helpful.

Because what they do is they help us to find our way to what we wish to consume in culture and marketing terms. They put little signs on things so we can find our way to what we're looking for. That's not a problem. The problem comes with the way that most people use the term Christian when applied to things other than people. It tends to mean of all the things “this thing is right, true, good, beautiful, vetted for your spiritual nourishment”, whatever it is. The idea of being coming to our Christian I'm using air quotes bookstore and consume it will just leave your discernment at the door because everything in here is right. True. Good, beautiful. It's at least more right the presumption the unspoken promises is that it's at least more right or more good or true or beautiful than all that. Now I'm using air quotes, quotes against secular stuff that's out there. So you should consume this instead, Christian education, Christian bubble gum, Christian radio stations, Christian anything is not inherently redeemed; not inherently right or true or good or beautiful. So it's false advertising.

Because it can't be those things. Christians are just as Christian artists, Christian retailers, Christian educators, are just as likely to lie to you as anybody else. They do not have the market cornered and I think CS Lewis would agree with this; and so would Francis Schaeffer, that they don't have the market cornered on things that are right, true, good or beautiful. Just because an arguably redeemed person made something does not make the thing that they made redeemed. Good, right, true without error without lie. Without deception. It doesn't.

And so I think it's a really unhelpful category. I think people who because I think that a lot of people use it selling safety and security. It's like when Christian radio stations have billboards that say “safe for the whole family”

Seth 16:10

positive and encouraging.

Derek 16:13

Yeah, it's like, like, first of all, what are you advertising there because Jesus certainly was not safe and certainly not for the whole family. But like you're selling something that you have no right to, like you don't have the market cornered on it. And oftentimes, I've heard a lot of Christian material that just outright misrepresents the character of God, the condition of man the contents just not correct I mean it as far as I read the Bible.

So I've never liked that term literally all the way back to Caedmons. We would be playing like colleges all over the country in the early 90s. I remember like the first few times we played at Duke and whoever had had us; and I’m at sure their heart was in the right place, but they put on the flyers all over the campus. Christian Band, Caedmons Call, we were brand new so people don't know our name. So they're just not sure how to get people to come out but they put you know, a Christian band, or whatever, and we literally just ran around and grabbed them all off the walls. Were like, don't put that dude like, first of all, we're not. We don't only talk about Christian stuff, like we're just trying to write good folk music, like, just put that we're a folk band, like if if people come out, like why give people a reason on its face to not engage or like what we're doing like why give people reason with some stupid category that's meaningless to not listen, why would you do that? It's not good communication. It's not smart. So I've never identified with that. I mean, like, literally in my heyday, I did not identify with that.

Seth 17:47

And to turn that around the other way, if if only this type of music is safe for an audience of Christianity, for followers of whatever then then I don't get to talk about pornography. I can't talk about Social Justice. I can't be like the gentleman up in Detroit, or not Detroit, Michigan, NF that talks about, you know, his mom passing away and drugs and addiction?

Derek 18:11

Well, a few things like a good rule of thumb for an artist is anything I mean for Christian I'm going to use the word air quotes here. But you know, as a Christian who's trying to make art the rule of thumb, I think a good rule of thumb tends to be whatever Jesus is lord of, you can write songs about you can make art about and I hope that's rhetorical, because according the Bible, he's Lord of all things. But the point being, it also like presumes when you talk about Christian people, which is really again, the only place that I think, Christian, the word Christian makes sense, if it makes sense. The presumption is that the Christian people are the ones who are going to be in heaven to the exclusion of all the other people. That's the way most Christians talk about it.

What it presumes by extension is that the Christian music, that this particular little tin of Christian breath mints, this is going to be the only Christian stuff in heaven. Just like the Christian people, it's such a confusing term, it can't possibly mean what we mean for it to mean. And I'll go even further to say that even with people, the term Christian, was it, at least anywhere in the Bible, or in the first few centuries, was never self applied. It was not a self prescription. It was a public verdict. People would see Christians, people who were trying to follow Jesus and they would say, look, there's the Christians. The Christians never marched in a town and said, “Hey, we're the Christian group“. That was only ever a public verdict based on watching people's behaviors. The people themselves never self prescribed it.

So to call yourself even to walk into a room and say, I'm a Christian, is actually very out of step with the first few centuries. And the time when Jesus arguably was was espousing all this so I think it's tricky. I think that using categories like that can be pretty tricky and typically backfire. Because even more so a word that 10 different people have 10 different definitions for is a meaningless word. So why would we use it? Because if you don't have any idea what someone what pops into somebody's head when you say the word Christian, and you walk in and say it before you know what that is? Why would you walk in and say it? What if an alien further planet the word Christian, where they come from means somebody who eats babies? Well, like you walk in it, because what would you not want to ask? Like, find that out before you walk in and call yourself one and I and it's an extreme example to make the point. But there are a lot of people who have very mixed ideas about what the word Christian means most of them are right?

Seth 20:34

Well, I don't know that it's all that extreme. I mean, you have Christians like Westboro Baptist that will protest a funeral. Right? Or Christians, like the Moral Majority or Christians like say, I mean, there's quick it's all over the place.

Derek 20:47

So you're underscoring and that's right. And so if people are, are likely are liable, or at least have the option to think that you are associate with any one of those groups, but the fact that you're using that word, you should probably stop using it. Because the thing is there's no power. There's no salvific power in using the word, the term Christian to describe yourself. There is no sacredness to it. There's a lot of people are like, I'm not ashamed of Jesus. I'm like, dude, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about being a smart communicator, I'm talking about not using a word, it literally takes one of your legs or both your legs out going into a conversation. Why would you do that? So yeah, I've never liked that term.

I don't think that's really the question. You were asking me? But when you talk about it in terms of art, I think I just always think it's important to take a minute and say all that because I think a lot of people just make presumptions. And here's the thing, words matter. Language is important. And I think a lot of people use a word like that in a very cavalier way, often to their own sabotage.

And so I think it matters, you know, just for people, but if you're asking me if I identify personally, as a believer in Jesus at this point, my life I don't…I don't and so that probably would have been the much simpler I probably could have just said no; rather that 20 minutes…

Seth 22:09

Had you done that we would not have thought about aliens and Christians eating babies.

Derek 22:15

Yeah, exactly what are the chances that they happen to call themselves Christians out on that planet and eat babies? What are the chances?

Seth 23:13

I have a question about a specific lyric on the airing of grief. And I want to bridge it in with a question about a deconstruction and just doubt, and angst. So you write and I can't remember which song it is. But you say

so either you aren't real, or I'm just not chosen. Maybe I'll never know either way, my heart is broken.

And so I hear that and I hear a maybe I'm hearing it wrong. Maybe I'm hearing it the way I want to hear it. But I'm allowed to do that if I if I buy the album.

Derek 23:45

Thats right, art is subjective.

Seth 23:49

I hear that. And I hear you questioning any god not necessarily, you know, Jesus. So, do you feel like a point of deconstruction, regardless of what your faith is unavoidable?

Derek 24:01

Um, that's a great question. And first, I'd like to say that I realized that that lyric, and so that's in a song called Goodbye for Now. It's the last song on the record. And what I'll say about it is that it's a very, it's an unusual lyric for me because it's binary. And I don't think in a binary way, I don't think hardly anything is binary. I think that's a way oversimplification. So that's Christian secularism, that's binary. It's like a switch that moves left to right, as opposed to a fluid moving knob that turns every way and is in constant motion. I think that's how most things actually are in reality is non-binary is fluid and moving and turning and 1000 points, granular points, between here and there as opposed to one or the other.

And, and so it's dead. But I do that occasionally I do these I make these binary statements occasionally. And that is definitely one and sometimes they're not helpful because they're kind of so logically absurd. That one though is how the emotion really feels to me.

And I actually think it's interesting that you said that you don't feel like that's a lyric of me, questioning a specific God or Jesus so much as kind of God in general or any god, I actually think it is pretty specific, because the God of the Bible, at least my reading of the Bible, is the one who does…there is so much language about you know, the way that God governs all things. aAnd God and the way that God does save, and that it is by grace through faith, and that is his doing and the work of the Holy Spirit. And there is a choosing on his part. And I know that's theologically debated in a lot of traditions, and that's not something I'm particularly want, any time thinking about right now. But the point being, it feels as though I'm questioning specifically the God of the Bible there. Because it because to me, the emotional corner I kept paying myself into trying to figure out what was going on in my life was either the God that I read in the Bible, the one that the Westminster Confession describes as governing whatsoever comes to pass is ultimately, the one where the buck stops; is ultimately the one in charge of creation in history and redemption and all things and is bringing all is, you know, bringing the kingdom coming to pass and is by Jesus reconciling all things to himself. And, you know, these are all fuses that he has lit and that he is in charge of, and he is governing, and this is his work that he's doing.

And if that's the God who's there, then one of two things really has to be true. That either he's there and that's all true and my name is just not in the book of life. I'm just in He just he didn't, I'm just I'm just I'm the I'm in the late I'm the I'm in the grave next to Lazarus. And he's called my neighbor out by name to life. And I remain dead next door, either that's what's going on or he's not there.

It kind of feels often like it's got to be one of the other now that has to do specifically the God of the Bible. So either God is not that God, he's not ultimately in charge. And someone else's or something else is or he yields his control to the the wills of men. And if that's the case, then he's not worth worshiping to me. So it also stands to reason just the same way.

And so to me, it's like so either he's…either either you're not real or I'm not chosen. It just really comes he kept coming back to that line for me. And maybe I'll never know either way My heart's broken as I say goodbye for now. You know, it's like, and I'm not leaving for good. That whole song the whole record ends on five seven chord is the most unresolved anticipatory chord in the whole scale. Because I'm not I'm not certain. It's just it's just my suspicion. And it's it's how I feel.

But do I think that deconstruction is inevitable? I don't think it's, I think that it is healthy. I think that you cannot discern whether the roots are healthy, or even really there unless you risk killing the plant by pulling it up to examine those roots.

I think that, that there is a point in people's lives, either due to trauma crisis, or just the slow, you know, a gathering of information about reality and how really cruel and hard it can be and how often it appears more often than not that God's not there, even if you do believe that he is. I don't think you can say that about the Bible also, I don't think that's unique to our time, but where you have to grab that plant, pull it up out of the ground. Because here's the thing, if the roots are there, and they're healthy, you can put that right back in the ground and it survives. If the roots are dead, or there is no root under that plant, wouldn't you want to know that the point is you have to risk killing the thing to find out you have to pull it up out of the ground you have to; otherwise you're speculating about the roots and you're looking at the leaves.

And that can be manipulated, that can be fake, you can talk yourself into things. If you're only looking from the ground up, you got to get down in the in the soil. Here's another way to say it.

Seth 29:22

I can't write songs, but I want you to write a song that says that, with the roots.

Derek 29:27

Well, well, yeah, well, I mean, it's just it's just how my mind works. But like, another example is like you can't, you can't be you can't look at the boat you're in and assess its veracity and assess whether or not it's equal to the waves and the water it can hold you you cannot truly do that while you're in it. You can't be in the boat and also give an honest account of its strength and its veracity. You can't! You either have to get out of the boat and have a look at it. It's like shit is that a boat? was is that when I was in that thing? Does that even look like a boat? I'm can't believe I was in that for so long. I mean, nothing's going to tip over any second. So either you have to eventually get out or you get such a big wave. So let's call that trauma or something, that you get thrown out of the boat. And while you're up in the air and freefall you can look down at the boat, you can have a look at and you're on your way, maybe back down into the boat, you're going to land back in it at some point, you're gonna land in the water. But it's not till you get some distance and detachment from it, that you can really assess if it can hold you and and what it's made of.

And I think that that's can be what deconstruction is, you know, deconstruction, often and should lead to reconstruction, right? But reconstruction does not presuppose that God or Jesus or all that is going to be there. I think a lot of people have said to me, Well, you know, people who I think really care and but they say, “Man, I just can't wait for you to finally turn the corner and come back to reconstruction now that you’ve done this deconstruction”. Like I've actually been fully reconstructed for several years. I don't know what you mean, and what they mean is back to their beliefs, things that they believe to be true. The a worldview, a grid through which I'm looking at the world that includes God and Jesus, which mine does not. And I don't think has to in order to be technically reconstruction, but yeah, I think it's healthy to do it. I think people should do it. I think maybe it is inevitable. I mean, I'm only in my 40s. But I think maybe everyone does eventually get to a point, who's committed to a belief regardless of that belief to deconstruct it, and to really feel the need to have a look at it. And sometimes that leads people to a belief in Christianity and some people leave people out. Um, but I think either way, it's healthy. I think it's necessary.

Seth 31:49

Yeah, I agree. I do think it's healthy. And I think it's necessary and I know in my case, the faith that I have now is more informed, entirely. more graceful, more inclusive and less hateful then the the faith that I had, you know, growing up in Midland, Texas. I'm curious being that you have either had something happened to you obviously, as people listen to your albums and I don't want to retread any of that here, I don't think it would be conducive to that. But you've been…you've been allowed the distance to deconstruct and so with that being said, when you go to play a concert or you even able to sing your old songs anymore?

Derek 32:32

Yeah that’s a good question.

Seth 32:34

Because I lead worship at my church and sometimes I struggle with some of the songs because I don't believe in the words.

Derek 32:41

Yes, absolutely. And you know what I do. I do play the old songs and but I give like a like a disclaimer every night after early in the show and basically says that being a professional autobiographer is tricky business. Because what happens is, if you're doing your job, right, and again, the job is to look at the world describe it, if you're doing your job, right, you run the very real and probable risk of over time writing songs that you for sure no longer agree with or relate to.

That's just what's going to happen. Because, you know, like, what healthy person can you imagine who would believe the exact same thing that they believed 2,5,10,20 years ago, that's a person coming into no new information. Like, I don't think it's healthy to, to literally learn nothing and to in no way alter your beliefs. So even if you're doing not, you know, a, you know, macroevolution in terms of your belief, but just micro you're just like you said, you're just kind of finding your way to a more plausible or more tolerant version of something more loving, more inclusive version.

Something even that's pretty different than where you might have been, even if you're not, you know wholesale, giving it up and believing something totally different. You're still a completely different man than you were a few years ago. And you can stand in a place try to describe the world and the world that you see will be totally different, you will be totally different. And therefore the document of what you make will be completely different. But I think that's healthy. And so what I usually say is, while I may not relate to or believe the words and some of the songs I may sing in any given night, at a concert, I will sing them anyway. And the reason is because again, while I might not be or relate to the man who wrote them, I do trust him. I trust that when he was looking at the world, knowing what he knew, trying to do his job to describe it for us, I think he did the best job that he could, and I will therefore cover his material.

But rest assured that that's what I'm doing. I'm covering another man's material. And the thing is, that's what I'd be doing regardless, like by the time I put Mockingbird out, I was covering the material of the man who wrote all the Caedmons songs, and who wrote She must have shall go free. But that's how I put Stockholm Syndrome out. I was covering the material of the man who wrote Mockingbird. So it's like, because I was no longer that man I didn't see the world exactly the same way.

And I'm just doing the same thing now. And so my performing of any song is not some presumption of my believing and if its content, and so and honestly, it's not just me, like you said, that happens to you. And I think that happens to any artist who's doing their job well. And so anybody who you like any thought any any writer that you follow any artist you follow, that's what they're doing to they might pretend that they believe at all, but really, they don't, not completely. And if they do then either they've not been honest with you along the way. Or it's just not the kind of music I listened to. So it's like, yeah, I mean, I so I will absolutely because ultimately as a as an artist, what I hope to do is provide emotional soundtrack for people, I'm so grateful for somebody to call out a song that was on my first record my third record at those early records, if it means something to them, if they've populated it with their own emotional furniture, they've made it part of their own emotional soundtrack that means so much to me that that we've had, we have that point of connection. It's not about me, I gotta take myself out of that equation. Because that song, like, that wasn't about me a minute after I finished writing it. It's everyone else's.

So it's like, it doesn't matter how I feel about it. You know, there are a lot more people because again, I'm detached from it now, I'm not the man who wrote it. So what it means to you is as meaningful as what it means to me because I'm not even it's not even mine anymore. I don't even feel you know, especially connected to it.

So to me, it's like I think there's a lot of artists who kind of hate their their hits or they hate their their old material they hate it. I'm so grateful, man. I mean, I've been in this job for 20 something years like if somebody calls out a song I'm so grateful that I've written something that means something to them outperform any song they want. And I'm not going to bitch and moan and give them some weird disclaimer about that particular song and all this song so done. And I can't believe I wrote it. And I said, you know, it's so stupid. And don't ask it. Yeah, I'm not gonna make you feel terrible, or like, embarrass you for calling the song. I'm going to deeply Thank you, and I'm gonna perform it. You know, this is what I do.

Seth 37:26

So yeah, one of the things and I just thought of this, I didn't, I didn't write it down. And so I might not say it the way I intend to. I think one of the things that strikes me as I sit here and while you're speaking, thinking about the songs that you've written, that have impact me, I think what strikes a dissonant chord with me about Fingers Crossed is your guitar sounds like the 20 year old you, but you're the digital and the voice and the lyrics sound like the new you. And so there's a constant tension when I hear the music right in my old me and my new me, and maybe I'm overthinking it. I don't think I am. But there's something there and I feel like it's on the very first album or very first track of the album. There's like a synthetic drumbeat and then a folk acoustic guitar put on top of that and it shouldn't work. But it does.

Derek 38:20

Right…Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate you saying so and yeah, I for sure. You know, creatively try to use every part of the buffalo so I make very intentional choices about I want when you hear a record, I don't think a lot of folk music or a lot of singer songwriter music does this well. And that's why I'm not super super into singer songwriter music on the whole but like it what it doesn't do is use every part of the buffalo in terms of and hip hop does it very well. Pop music does it very well.

When you just hear the beginnings of the music and you already have the feeling that the songs about what before you even hear the first lyric you already have the feeling, you already know emotionally where you're going and where you are. And like I because I had to alter the sound of fingers crossed early on in my producing it because I realized that I thought that it was going more of like an electric guitar record and a whole other I had a whole other sound in my head. But as I started to finish the songs and record them I just realized you know what these songs need to be on this instrument and they need to sound like this and needs to be soft and gentle and, and like a juxtaposition. It needs to have really aggressively distorted drums along with very sensitively quiet nylon string guitar. Like it needs to be a real because that's the emotion of what I was feeling it was anger and and and aggression and frustration and desperation and sadness and I needed to hold all that together musically and sometimes it comes off really weird. And people it gives people a weird uneasy feeling, guess what, that's exactly what it's designed. You're supposed to feel. And there is all over the record a lot of very dissonant chord changes and chords that are very dissonant in and of themselves. That's because you're supposed to kind of cock your head a little bit when you're listening because you're supposed to feel a little weird, because those emotions feel a little weird. And I felt a little weird about the whole thing.

And so I want you to feel before you even hear the lyrics of the melody, I want you to feel what that emotion felt like. And so if you can do it with the music, you should, you know, and see I always make choices like that on records and and I think I also did, like the irony of bringing some of those sounds those acoustic sounds onto a record like this considering what I know the connotations, or at least I know what the connotations are, for me, of those sounds, just hearing those sounds under my voice, rather than it being a purely electronic thing, which is awesome, but also be the temptation. So yeah, I'm very aware of that, you know, when I'm making records.

Seth 41:02

Well, I appreciate it. But I don't know that that someone that just bought Fingers Crossed would get that. But that doesn't negate the outcome for them. And that's fine. It doesn't negate the album for them. I will say for those listening and I don't necessarily want to go into it here in the interest of time for another really good example of a song that messes with you. The Spirit Bears the Curse. I had that in the car. And I thought it was going somewhere and in it, and it's fine. I enjoy a play on words. I did not know that it was going what was going but but it didn't negate anything. It it made the whole song made more sense. But either way, either way. That's, that's that's a tangent.

Derek 41:46

Yeah, there's there's a little it's kind of the land of pop songs. You get to the end and when you realize what it was about the whole time. You got to go back to the beginning.

Seth 41:56

Yeah, I see spirit, people for lack of a better words. I'm Derek, we're running out of time and and I want to give you just a vehicle to. For those that don't know, Derek has a side project as well called the airing of grief. And so you'll hear a lot of really, really good conversations specifically about grief and doubt and everything else with that. Derek, are those people that just call in and leave you a voicemail or are you talking with them? Or how does that work?

Derek 42:26

Right so The Airing of Grief is the podcast that came out of the record I mean, basically I put the record out the response that I was getting back from the record, people commenting about the record their their reply, that what they were saying was not actually about the record, it was about them wanting to tell their own stories of spiritual deconstruction, reconstruction, whatever like so them hearing me do it, since that's what the record is really about. It's my my story. Kind of was inspiring people to tell their own stories.

And so I realized Quickly like, oh, wow, like, I, you know, there is a real bottleneck here of people who really want to tell their stories and feel very alone. They feel like they're all alone. And the second they feel like there's someone else with them, they want to start talking. And, and, you know, and I, you know, I tend I try to be sensitive to things like that I try to kind of keep my eyes peeled for opportunities like that. And so what I decided is like, either this can be some can like diffuse on some, you know, awkward and, and unintentional kind of conversations of social media and stuff about spirituality, and that'd be okay. I guess I mean, not really yet, and never goes well, or can we do more? Is there something we could do that could be more meaningful, and organize it to the benefit of other of a lot of other people in order that they don't feel alone also. And so what we decided to do was, that's where the podcast was born and essentially what it is is what I decided to do was just to make myself available to talk to people if they wanted to talk about spiritual being reconstructed to tell their stories, and set up a thing.

And this is actually how we're in our second season now, but it's how it still works right now you basically go to our website, or the airing of grief calm, you can go there and you just Schedule A 10 minute call. And we it's just like this, we get on Skype. And you got, you know, around 10 minutes, and we just talk and, and we record our record them. And we, we, we, we, we make it anonymous, we take your name that we bleep your name out of it, but and then we just air those calls. And, and the thing is, your grief can be with God, it can be with the institution of the church, it can be with the congregation of the church, it can be with your parents and your upbringing. It can be with us and me.

I mean, you know, I've had people call in just to try to kind of evangelize me or to be angry with me that I have left them, you know, in the middle of a journey that we've been on together for a long time. And that's also facing Whatever it is, you've got 10 minutes, let's talk you know, and and then what we do is we we curate those by topic, and put them together as like kind of 3040 minute episodes. And so it's kind of the air because for everyone who would be willing to and we also people can write us letters and then we read those. Also a non anonymize those but and you know, because for every person who would write in or call, there are 10 2050 people who would never do that, but would be deeply comforted and hearing their story articulated by someone else. And as far as it makes them feel not alone and going through it. And so often, the thing that makes you feel nuts is not the deconstruction, the deconstructive process, but going through that can often feel pretty liberating, and really good and really healthy. It's the feeling alone and isolated in it that makes you feel crazy.

And so that's the part we want to address. And that's really what has become the theme of this whole kind of season. My career is just for me, for my friends who I do the podcast with. It's what we needed. We felt very alone and going through And we started doing to it a lot of people felt alone. But notice that statement a lot of people felt alone. So like, how can we recongregate around the conversation in a safe way. And that's what we started doing it. So that's what the podcast is. And it's so our second season now anywhere you go looking for podcast, it's just be airing of grief and the airing of grief calm and you can schedule a call or write a letter and have a conversation with us about it. Like you can be on it. It's yours. I mean, it's, we just hold the space for people who want to tell their stories and to the benefit, you know, of the people who might hear them. And that's what it is. And I'd love for people and we have certainly lot a lot of hours talking about these very things. And it's been an incredible experience for me personally, you know, to, it's been honoring to hear these stories from people and people gone through and some of them gone through really, really hard things and persisted and fought to still believe, and I believe them and their stories are remarkable, and I can't imagine how they manage to still believe but they do or stay in their communities, their faith communities, but they do.

Other people have no particular reason. And it just doesn't really resonate with them anymore. And they and they leave and everything in between. So it's what I love about it for me is talk about binary too granular binary to, to fluid. It's like, it makes me realize just how nuanced this really is. It's not just people who are all in in the church and people are all out. You know, the atheists, agnostics. It's like, Nah, man, they're RF, there's every story in between. I did 100 calls just for season one. Like I've had a lot of these conversations with people. And you wouldn't believe I mean, some really brave people, some really hurt people. Some people have been through some really hard things, but they're all over the map. I mean, many of them and that's a lot of the conversation we have I fact I've talked a lot of people out of leaving the faith because it would be intellectually dishonest women to do so in my opinion, because their complaint is with the institution of the church or with The congregation of the church but not with this. The, in other words, there are always there's at least three things that we're deconstructing when we when we talk about deconstructing. It's the the political, social institution of the church, the movement, there is the the the assembly of all the people who practice Christianity, the congregation of people, other people. And then there's the idea of an all powerful, all good, other who made all things. God, those are three completely separate things. And you could need to get the hell away from two of them, but still be cool with the third, or vice versa. Um, and any combo and there's probably even more than just the three but those are the main three that we've identified and it's like, you might need to stick it out like maybe I hear you really still believing that God is there and for you. And I would pay attention to that and follow that. You might just need to, you know, it's like I think maybe it's Tim Keller or somebody you know, I'm sure I didn't This phrase, but I feel like I say it a lot, which is that some Gods deserve atheists. And, you know, because, yeah, I mean, I some Gods is there an atheist man and it's like, it feels like you even said something like this earlier like the God who you believed in that was not loving, it was not tolerant of certain things that was not that God needed you that needed that made an atheist out of you for that God. And so you and even Richard, you know, Dawkins talks about this, he says that everyone rejects the majority of the gods and culture Zeus, you know, I mean, consumerism maybe he just goes one god further is a very you know, he's obviously a famous atheist but, but we're all atheists to a lot of things and some Gods deserve atheists because they're not there and sometimes you have to be an atheist or one god to hold space for the real God who is there to show up. And so it's a I think, all these conversations are important and I and I've talked to people in every part of that spectrum. It's been really good, you know. And so I don't want people to think that they're only going to hear about people who are on the other side of it, who have left it or even suspect that we're trying to talk people into it. We certainly aren't. If anything, we're we're sometimes doing the opposite. We just want to have the conversation. Because I think it's important.

Seth 50:17

Where else can people interact with you? Derek? Where else would you point people to obviously we got your website. We've got your music. That's Derek web. com. Correct.

Derek 50:25

Derekwebb.com. Yeah. Anywhere you go look at is just at Derekweb.com for all social media, all that whatever.

Seth 50:33

Good. Good, good. Good. Well, I will give you back the rest of your morning.

Derek 50:36

Yeah. Well, it's a pleasure to talk to you as well.

Seth Outro 51:30

Deconstruction is not an inherently bad thing, grief, doubt, anger, fear, regret is not inherently bad, and probably is good. And without it, what really kind of faith you have. You're just repeating what you've been told. Your faith is not your own. As Scripture pretty much implies and tells us in many places. You need to have an answer for the faith that you believe in. That you profess and you can't just parrot someone else's ideas. And so I hope that this conversation with Derek was as helpful to you as it was with me and never really thought about every God needs an atheist. That is, I'm gonna have to sit on that for a while if I'm honest. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate the show in iTunes. Tell your friends, tell your mom tell your dad tell your co workers The bigger the community the better. The music that you've heard inner woven throughout this episode is from Fingers crossed from dark web. It is a great album especially for those of you that are having the same struggles. But be prepared to be pushed a bit as you listen to it and that is 127,000% Okay, you'll find the specific songs on the Spotify playlist. Can I Say This At Church