Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio Episode

Sean 0:00

without Christ, like we're all dirtbags..like, so it's like nobody's better than anybody without Christ and His grace and His mercy like, we're all done here. So I think letting that be the lives that you see people through, I think that helps. That helps a lot.

Seth Intro 0:58

Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I am Seth, your host. Before we get started, please just hit pause, go back into iTunes, hit five stars write up what your thoughts are on the show good or bad. I'd love to read them either way, let's try to make them good though people, I appreciate you. Other ways that you can help and support the show, visit our Patreon Can I Say This At Church a buck a month or if you want to do a little more you can get access to a few other parts of the show, blooper reels, other other goodies in there.

I would love to send more of you books from the book selection. So those of you that are on that level, I hope that you are enjoying the book Grateful that was sent out in April by Diana Butler Bass. Today's guest is musician, artist, poet, general good person, Sean C. Johnson. He is an Album of the Year, Signer of the Year by Kingdom Choice Awards. He has been given an NAACP Image Award he tours on multiple continents love his music and I'm excited for you all to hear what we got to discuss. I think it was open I think it was honest and if I'm being honest musicians hold a special place in my heart as I would like to think that I am some form of one so; with that being said, Sean C. Johnson.

Seth 3:03

Shawn C. Johnson, thank you so much for joining the Can I Say This At Church podcast! I am excited to, to talk with you. I have a special place in my heart for musicians because I'd like to think that I am one. And and I'm grateful to be able to do this with you.

Sean 3:19

Awesome, man. Thank you for having me.

Seth 3:21

Oh yeah. I'd also like to thank you. So for those that listened, I was able to feature your episode in a previous or your music in a previous episode, and I think it worked well. And so, on the record, I'd like to, I did say thank you in an email, but I'll say thank you again. So appreciate that.

Sean 3:38

Not a problem, man. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for that support.

Seth 3:41

Yeah. So Sean, how are you? I know you if I'm not wrong. I feel like you just got back from London, right?

Sean 3:49

That is correct, absolutely correct. I am…I am still trying to catch up. Like I'm starting. I'm still trying to just physically I think I'm naturally a night owl. So like staying up late is is already the norm for me. But I guess a little bit different this time around. So it's like my body. I think I'm bright at that point now that I'm back, like I'm recalibrating back to being in the States.

Seth 4:13

How many hours difference?

Sean 4:17

For us, they are so I'm central time. So this six hours ahead of us. Eastern time.

Seth 4:23

So yeah, so it's dinnertime in Europe.

Sean 4:26

Right. Right. They are definitely eating.

Seth 4:32

Well, I wanted to be a good steward of the time that we have, and, and I'll just asked you up front. I do have some, some, some some questions to ask as we get in later. And hopefully, I think we can speak to that in the way that you you were able to minister and tell a story through music. And I will say yeah, I first heard your music on an album with Sho Baraka…piano. Oh, gosh, I can't think of the name of the song right now. It's

Sean 4:57

Oh yeah, piano and politics I think.

Seth 4:59

Yeah. I'm over its track five. I know that I just can't think of the song right now. Um, and I remember listen to him like, man, I like this voice. I got it. I got to track it down. Yeah, so so yeah. So, what is your story shown? What, uh, what do you where you're at today?

Sean 5:15

Man, I've been singing my whole life. I grew up in a church. The two constants, always grown up with music and God. And when I got older, like, this is wasn't something that I initially pursued. Like, when I was younger, I had these groups and stuff that I would be in and we had delusions of grandeur. We thought we were going to be the next New Edition are whatever. But as I got older, that dream kind of faded.

But um, but God being God, like he brought that desire full circle, and just the friend that I worked with, he knew that I saying, and he was taking the audio engineering class, and he invited me out. It was like, “Hey, man, you sing and I get a grade” so I was like, “let's do it”. So I thought I recorded some stuff. Enough, they kept letting us come back, for whatever reason, and we ended up recording an album for free. Not I think about it, I don't know how legal that was or how how much the way we're going to have. But I had almost a free album, done and recorded for free.

So I put it out, I let people hear it. And just the reception that I got for just kind of encouraged me to keep kind of doing it. And from there, I perform a like open mics and someone would see me there. They invite me to another event. They see me at that event and get invited to another event and it started opening doors. And here I am almost 1012 years later, and you're still doing it still at it.

Seth 6:39

Yeah, I know. I've enjoyed it. And I did think of it. It's called Pianos in Jericho. I just it escapes me at the moment. So you haven't always been a singer though from what I understand. You were in the Air Force. Right? And so those two things yeah, in my mind, don't I don't know they don't go did you sing in the Air Force or did you sing to get out of the Air Force, what's that?

Sean 7:02

I was a satellite communications. I did ground communications for the Air Force. So I did that for almost 12 years. And I did sing but it wasn't, I think, I started my career I was in the Air Force. But how nice and we started singing how everybody found out I could sing without singing the national anthem for like retirement ceremonies and promotion ceremonies and changes, demands, and different things like that. So people knew that I could sing. And that's how my coworker invited me to the studio, because I was going around singing the National Anthem. But I started my career while I was in the Air Force. So I started around. Oh, 506 and I got out in 2012. So for the first six years of my career, I was in the Air Force working out working a full time job.

Seth 7:50

Well this isn't a fair question, because because it's artists to artists. Being that you sang the national anthem, what are your I didn't I didn't write this down, but I want to know, what do you think about that Fergie rendition at the game over in California?

Sean 8:09

(Laughs) You know, honestly, I didn't hear it all the way through. Like I heard the first part of it was like, good. Yeah, yeah. I heard she got ran through the ringer for it and it wasn’t good.

Seth 8:26

I don't know what it was. It wasn't the national anthem. It was…it was…it was words.

Sean 8:35

Yeah it was definitely words and a melody, but it wasn't a national anthem.

Seth 8:38

Yeah. So I hadn’t planed on asking that. So you talk about growing up in the church, but what did that look like? Like, I know you're in Oklahoma now. What did that look like? Did you Have you always been Oklahoma? What kind of church kind of what did that how did that influence the you are now?

Sean 9:02

I'm actually not from Oklahoma. I was born in Tampa, Florida. I'm an army brat so I'm pretty much from everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Um, but search for me. I grew up in a very old school church very, very conservative. We didn't even have praise and worship, but we sung hymns, from hymnals. I had to dress up in suits every Sunday. But I'm grateful for that foundation because it really grounded me and rooted me in my faith. And I'm still I'm still a Christian because of that, like my because of my foundation. So I'm grateful for it.

Um, but yeah, like we grew up with alot of rules or regulations. We couldn't we couldn't do certain things. Like I couldn't go to the movies like it was just it was a lot of it was a lot of thought of rules, a lot of regulations but as I grew older, you know, kind of kind of grew out of that, but I'm grateful I really am grateful for that foundation. I look back on it, I thank God for it.

Seth 10:07

Yeah. So you have an album name 1993. And your most current album is $19.93 cents from what I can see, but i don't i don't think that I don't think that's right. I noticed that today. I was like, how did I miss that? I like I like the old price tag there. And that album Days Like This from what I can read not too long ago. I mean, you were like top 20 in the iTunes like you were sandwiched between The Weekend on on both ends. Um, yeah, massive as a big deal. There's a lot there's a lot of songs in iTunes. So was that was that expected? Or was that something that you're like, “Oh, my, how did this…what's happening here?

Sean 10:54

I didn't even realize it. So my cousin pointed it out to me. Like I hadn't checked the charts. I didn't even think to check it until he sent me a picture. I was overseas, I was in London at the time when the album came out. So I didn't see it until like, the day after, when he sent me the picture because of my signal and stuff over there, so until I got some Wi-Fi, I just got these flood of text messages. And one of the text messages was from him saying, “Hey, did you know that you're number 16 on iTunes?” I was like, “No, I did not know. I was number 16 on iTunes.” So it was really cool. Because I mean, it was something that I have always seen. I've seen people you know, they released albums, I hey, my albums, you know, top 10 Top 20 and you know you always saying I meant if I had an album that you know, kind of crack that so so to have that moment was pretty cool.

Seth 11:44

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie every once in a while. I'll check to see if I get the top 200 of podcasts, it just in theology. And so far I haven't and that's fine. That's not why I do it. Maybe one day.

Sean 12:00

When you say something, man, you see that guy? Was it not Brandon Ingram, the guy for the Lakers. teen years in the D-league and he found he played the last two games of the regular season for the Lakers.

Seth 12:15

Does he still?

Sean 12:17

No, he just he just played I don't know if you follow basketball or not, but like, he played 10 years in the D league in the Developmental League, and he just played the last two games. They called him up for the last two games. He had never played in NBA. He's probably played he ended up on like 19 points in his first game.

Seth 12:36

That's awesome. I didn't see that. I also didn't know there was a D league. Um, I'm a Spurs fan, but only when the playoffs start only when the playoffs

Sean 12:52

Yeah, they have a development of the D-G for something

Seth 12:58

For general admission ticket $3 apiece. I struggle with any sport that has more than say 50 games, so like baseball and yeah, I'm like, man, I would love to watch this. But I don't have nine months to dedicate to you. I just, I don't…I got kids. I got a job. But I'll watch it once I start.

Sean 13:22

Yeah. You have other responsibilities that make sense. I'm a single guy. I live by myself. So yeah, I get it.

Seth 13:33

So you've won many awards as I was researching you out. So you got the Kingdom Choice Awards, which, if you want an award, the kingdom's choice, I mean, God's kingdom. I feel like that's, that's on the list for Album of the Year, singer of the year. You get you know, you got the gospel blue mic awards, and most recently, the NAACP Image Award, Are those the same thing?

Sean 14:02

Oh, no, those are two different awards. But I won the award for the same thing. I won on the same album.

Seth 14:12

Yeah. And that was from a show called Green Leaf, right?

Sean 14:16

Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

Seth 14:17

Yeah, so you got a whole new bookshelf, that’s alot of awards.

Sean 14:25

Right I keep all my awards on my TV mantle now, so I just keep them up there. What's crazy I still have the…you remember the TVs with the back like the big back. Like the home. I still have that too. I never watch it. It's in my living room. It's just sitting there. sitting on top of

Seth 14:45

Your mom calls “Sean. Where do you keep your awards? It's on top of all the other ones. It's right up there with a bottle of Dr. Pepper”. (laughter from both)

Sean 14:58

It’s pretty cool man to put that stuff on your resume man is pretty cool. Cuz a lot of lot of times that's what the NAACP and the in the Civil War like those faces, they get you into the room. And it's kind of like they give you credibility. So it's really dope is really does just kind of put that on a resume that I Oh, you know he's he's one is he's one that so? Yeah, yeah. It just kind of gives you a little bit more credibility.

Seth 15:23

Absolutely. Well, what is that award for? Because as I google it like there's some big names associated with that award. So what is that awarding exactly?

Sean 15:32

Yeah. So the NAACP Image Award, they give that the one I wanted for was the Gospel Album of the Year believe it was. So it was a lot of big names in gospel. I honestly didn't think it was going to win and I was just happy to be nominated. I was I was continued to put that on my resume. And I was nominated for NAACP, but I'm for it to actually win was really dope because like I said, it's like you said there's some big names that were That will attach to it and that were in the running for. It was pretty cool. So I think and even like for the Stellar Awards, that's, that's the that's the Grammys of the Gospel community. So it's kinda like the equivalent of a Grammy for the Gospel.

Seth 16:15

So that's like, that's like another Dove award for Chris Tomlin to go with his 97 others.

Sean 16:22

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

Seth 16:24

Um, so I've listened to every album, I’ve listened to your newest album just few days ago, but I haven't listened to it enough to know what I think about it in a good or a bad way. Like I like to, I like to, to think on songs. And when I listen to music, I usually shut everything else down. And, and I'm one of those ones that sit track one to track nine because you did it that way on purpose. You're trying to say something so.

Sean 16:51

Right. I don't

Seth 16:52

I don’t know what kind of artist you are. I mean, some of the times I feel like it's soul, and then it's not and then it's gospel. And then it's not and then it's almost hip hop. But then it's, it's not. So what kind of style are you?

Sean 17:09

Man…it honestly depends on the day. I listened to a lot of music. Um, I guess my bread and butter I would have to say is so music. That's the music that I listened to the most. But like, I enjoy hip hop, like I grew up listening to hip hop. I used to rap a lot more when I was younger. I still rap now, but I used to rap more when I was younger. So it really dictates…like depends on the instrumental on the beat that I'm writing to like what comes out to me. I think it's, I think it's a blessing to be versatile like that to be able to articulate you know, different emotions or different feelings depending on the on the on the mood of the song.

I think one thing that's dope about rap is it allows you to expound a little bit more than singing it's a lot more wordy so you're able to kind of articulate stuff and, you know, dig a little deeper and explain stuff a little bit more. And so tell more of the story. So yeah, I mean it, it really does depend like I think, I think my my fans and my supporters like they have, they've been they've gone on the journey with me. And they've kind of mature with me and it kinda, you know, whatever, whatever music I put out there, they're there. They're open to it. So I'm fortunate for that. Yeah,

Seth 18:27

No, I, I enjoy it. And I know, when my son he's he just turned 9 he plays the drums so I tried, he tried. He's learning to play the drums. And I had a great time addicted him to rap music. And usually I try to make the podcast in such a way that anyone can listen most importantly him. And when your music came on on that prior episode, he goes, “Hey, rewind that you usually don't have good music”. And so I backed it up. He's like, he's like, can I listen to the whole song? I was like, Oh, yeah, absolutely. When we get home. Oh, I don't I don't have it in the car. So, so you got a fan there like he genuinely all he cares about is the rhythm and the musicality. I don't even think he's listening to the words usually, maybe when he gets older.

But yeah, so yeah it caught his ear. So yeah. Which is great. Um, so in your albums, one of the things I appreciate you is you talk about a lot of things not to play on words that we don't talk about in church. I mean, you talked about, I mean, I mean, even even most recent album, like “cooking” is stuff that you don't talk about at church. And yeah, and so I'd like to talk to you about some of those songs that just stuck with me. The biggest one is a song called 30. And I think I've seen at least two albums. How do you write or how do you even sing a song like that? Like, I know what you're saying. And for those that haven't listened, it's a song if I'm not wrong, Sean about pornography, right?

Sean 19:59

Yeah. No, absolutely.

Seth 20:01

Yeah. So yeah, how do you do something like that and be able to perform it?

Sean 20:10

Man. Um, so for me, I've always tried to be as I know, it's so cliche, but I try to be as transparent as possible. for a couple reasons. The main reason is because I realize that what I go through, it's not just unique to me like this other people that go through the same thing. And if I can, can expand on and share and edify somebody else who buy music, then that's what I'm going to do. And I think, because pornography is such a widespread issue for a lot of people, I felt like it was it was my place to say something about it, like I felt, I felt, I felt it necessary to address this issue and to not, to not allow it to sit in the dark anymore to actually you know, bring it to the light and actually talk about it. And I think that it's been beneficial that One of the songs that to this day, people come up to me and say, “Hey, man, thank you. Thank you for this song”. So for me that to me is the point of music especially at least for what I do it for. I did music to number one give God glory and then number two to edify his people. So I definitely want to use my platform and my gifts to speak life and to edify and to encourage people.

Seth 21:25

What has been so what is the feedback from say, your church then like your pastor, your deacons, your elders, you know, depend on the type of church ago what is what does that sound like? You release a song like that, you know, people in the church are going to support you, you know, they're going to know you at a level that I don't. And so you show up on Sunday to worship is it different?

Sean 21:48

No, I'm fortunate that I grow up that I currently attend the church that's it's very open. That's very non-judgmental, very loving. It helps to have that type of safe place to go into where we're able to be honest about each other. Like, I think that's one thing that we don't have enough of like, of just meeting people where they're at. And not allowing people to stay there, but it means meeting them where they're at and not judging judging them and realize that hey, like, we without Christ, like we're all dirtbags like, so it's like nobody's better than anybody without Christ and His grace and His mercy, like, we're all done for out here.

So I think letting that be the lens that you see people through, I think that helps…that helps a lot. So I said, I may not be everybody's situation. But I know at least for me, in my church, like in my community of believers, like they, they're really open to it and they encourage it like today like this is how we heal. This is how we break the chains of these different things, is by talking about it, not allowing it to be in the dark.

Seth 23:02

What is the role or what do you see as the role for a musician, regardless of the genre in instances like that, so you got stuff like, you got another song, and I'm trying to think of the name of it right now, it references Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. And so yeah, when I, when I hear songs like that, like I relate, but I have a lot of friends that are not white. And I hear that and I can relate on a different level. But usually, that's what you see the pushback on, especially lately, you know, we just had the anniversary of MLK, and I live 30 minutes East of Charlottesville, so, or West of Charlottesville. So what is the role of the church and musicians in the church, in the climate that we live in right now?

Sean 23:50

So I think as musicians, I think we are to create the soundtrack, for a movement or even for our lives like we are to take what's happening In the world, and through the lens of art, expound on it, and give people something unlike music is a very powerful medium. And I think it's meant to, to either build and assure like, because it's that powerful like you can either build something up you can or you can say people doubt. So I think any responsible artists is going to build up and is going to encourage and draw attention to different issues. Like we are, we are the mouthpieces like we are the ones who are able to get on the microphone and speak loudly. And people won't necessarily; because like if I were to get on the mic and just start talking, that's one thing and people can be sometimes too loud if I come, but if I'm able to get on that same stage and I use a melody, it's harder to tune me out.

Because the melody it draws you in and music kind of captivates you that draws you in. So the medium of music like it's powerful like you can at least get people listen, before they immediately tune you out, as opposed to just getting on a stage and talking. Like I'm able to get up there and share something through the medium of music because it is so powerful and people are more receptive to it; so we have that responsibility man to really expound to edify and the draw attention to our current moment.

Seth 25:21

I hear you say, you know, our job is to is to build up. So how can we do that without first addressing any foundational issues? I mean, there's there's going to be demolition involved in that. And so how do we do that with with care? Like, I mean, there's part of part of construction or building is, isn't it? You gotta break things. So what do we need to break?

Sean 25:47

So I mean, you said it! I think you definitely do have to, you have to do it from a place above, I think, I think people can tell when you're preaching at them or were you just kind of talking to them and and exposing some things. So I think we have the job of doing it in an artistic way to where it doesn't come across as abrasive or people just automatically tune this out. Because you can make that mistake to even do music you can come across as preachy, as they say, are just kind of like pointing the finger. But I think as artists we have to be, we have to do it in an artistic way, where people won’t tune us out. So I think you do sometimes have to tear down like, you know, I've had some songs with talks about There's a song called Shepherd me when I talk about, you know, false prophets, but the way that it comes across, like if you're a lot more receptive to it, because of the way that I spoke on it.

So I think like, that's what our job is like, we have to do it in a way to where we can, we had so and when I was in the military, we had this term called a “crap sandwich”. We basically like you start out with that In the business world, amazingly, I've never heard that you never heard okay. So it's called a crap sandwich. So basically, you start out with something good, which is the bread. And then you give them the crap in the middle and then you bookend it with something good. So like you put the bad in the middle of the day with two, you know, two compliments or something like that. So it just makes it easier to digest and to deal with so, so yeah, so that's, that's, I guess the short answer is, as artists, we have to be able to give people crap sandwiches.

Seth 27:32

Well, that mean that approach? I like that I’m going to use it. That approach reminds me a lot of, of how a lot of liturgy is is based. It's basically we're recognizing the garbage. We're lamenting and we're repenting of it. And then we're going to talk about hope in the church and hope in Christ.

Sean 27:51

Yeah, you just can't rip people down and then not giving me any hope.

Seth 28:29

So what is going on with 1993? I mean it's it's everywhere what is that, what is the significance there?

Sean 28:37

So the album Circa 1993 that album really just told it told a year my life that was instrumental like this is the year that shaped who I am as a person. So I ended up naming my label my independent label Circa 1993. So any anytime you see 1993 it’s just kind of an homage to my label and just to that year that really saved me as a person.

Seth 29:08

Well talk about that a bit. What what happened that made it so impactful?

Sean 29:13

Yeah. So 1993 that was the year my mom passed. She passed around the beginning of the in February of that year. So my mom passed. That was when, I fell in love with music. That was the first time I boot I viewed any adult material and economic graffiti that was first year I was introduced to it. And then that was also the year that I gave my life to Christ. So all four of those things kind of happen. All in 1993. So that album, and then just just kind of that year shaped who I was, like, I became the man that I am because of those four events. I can say my mom passing me fall in love with music, being introduced to pornography, and then you know, eventually giving my life to Christ like it really it really shaped me as a person.

Seth 30:00

What is your goal with Days Like This? What do you what is the theme that you're trying to hit? What are you trying to say?

Sean 30:08

Yeah, so, um, Days Like This is it saying how a lot of times as as Christians, we ignore our emotions and we we don't pay attention to our, to our humanity. So I think emotions are a gift. We're not controlled by them, but they are a gift from God. And this album is really just expressing that like what happens when, when you're in relationship and it doesn't work out? What does that look like these emotions that you deal with? When you are longing for love, and it doesn't happen when you're in relationship, and things are going the way that you want to go. We don't talk about that a lot as Christians. So there's a scripture I think it's in probably the the Proverbs of Solomon who talks about in Proverbs 34 and 18, which talks about God is near to the brokenhearted So it's like when you're broken hearted when you're hurting no matter what it's from but like specifically if it's from a relationship Are you know lost love, like, God is close to you. And I think people need to know that like God is right there with you. He's not intimidated by our emotions he's not scared off by it. He gave us these emotions for a reason like so when you want to love or you want to be in a relationship that's not a bad thing. Like for campaign when you long for companionship, that's not a bad thing. So he's not intimidated by it. So when we hurt or when we feel a certain type of way, because of that, God is still close nonetheless. So he doesn't just you know, disappear during that time and leave us to our own devices but like he's he's very much he's very much there to process.

Seth 31:49

This is probably not fair, because I mean, you wrote them all. So I think my favorite song on the album is Cooking and I'm pretty sure it's because And mostly because I like rap a little more than gospel or hip hop a little more and it's got that flavor to it. It's almost and that's why I say it's it's almost rap but it's not. It's It's It's more it's less though. So that's my favorite so what of the eight babies on the album? Which one is the one that you're like? Yeah, Mom, listen to this one. This this is if you don't listen anything else. This is the album This is the whole purpose, which was it?

Sean 32:29

Cooking is definitely on that list Cooking. Love Song and probably Baal, which is track number seven. And Baal is probably one of my favorites. This goes from an artistic standpoint. It was a challenge for me because it's calm. If you go back and listen to it, it's a conversation between three people. So the first half of the verse is the temptor or Satan, talking and then the second part of it is Me or the person has been tempted. And then the third part is God, of course, I was talking to the song. So just from artistic standpoint, it was really dealt to just kind of be challenged like that and to be able to pull it off in that manner. And for it to all, you know, flow seamlessly with the melody and all that and all that stuff. But yeah, those who probably a cooking lesson.

Seth 33:25

So in building what is the idol? I assume we're talking about Baal as idol

Sean 33:32

yeah. So the idea behind the song is that a lot of times like when we get rejected, or when we deal with heartbreak, we run the things that won't say no. So a lot of times these idols can be pornography, they can be alcohol, they can be drugs, they can be anything. So that's basically what the song saw my life. We run to these things that won't deny us, we worship these idols that won't say no to us. Even though we need to be targeting we need to be running to God with the things like so. Yeah. So it can be a lot of defects. Yeah.

Seth 34:06

Yeah. And I would argue, and you don't have to respond if you don't want to that, that a lot of people make religion, or, or, or Honestly, I would argue with some people that they make the Bible, the idol. I'm a big fan of, I think the Bible is about the Word of God being Jesus. But the Bible is not Jesus. And so I find lately, most people I interact with when I, when I say that to them, they run back to a scripture verse, and I'm like, Yeah, but Jesus already said, You have heard it said, but I am saying to you, that this is the rules now. But and so. Yeah, but and that's, again, that's something we don't say in church and it's it's hard to articulate in a way that that I'm pleased with, but maybe one day I'll be able to say it without without offending everybody.

So why an independent label? Is that just something because you needed? Is it easier to do it that way? Because I see a lot of people you know, you got you, you got humble beast, you got a lot of people coming off and doing their own thing detached from a big, huge centralized powerhouse of a label, why?

Sean 35:19

Well, important reasons. So no one signed me. So that's one reason. I mean, no one has actually signed me.

Seth 35:27

I mean, you got these awards now. So I'm just saying.

Sean 35:37

But no, the other reason and the main reason is honestly, the freedom that comes with that, especially with the internet being what it is like, I can tap right into my fan base, and grow my fan base like that. And there's a lot of what I do that a label that I can do for myself that that I don't need a label for. So it's kind of like This is business 101, like if I'm going to split the pie, but the the size of the pie stays the same, like I get less of the pie now so it's like, but if the pie the size of the pie increases, then then it makes more sense to, to split that. But if the pie is just going to stay the same size, I might as well keep the pie to myself so but um, but yeah, so…

Seth 36:22

The trend that I noticed is the people that go off on their own and do an independent label or or sign with an independent label. And by that I mean something like a you know, a humble beast or something where you can do what you want to do. They seem to give you quite a bit of autonomy. There's just a lot of lot of a lot of variants in what they're doing. Did the bigger labels from your experience and with other artists not let you say what needs to be said for fear of not being able to put it in LifeWay bookstores or in wherever else sells no actual albums anymore.

Sean 36:56

Definitely. When the platform is a little bit bigger, like you have to appeal to a broader audience. So I think they have to worry about a lot of that. And as an independent artist, like I can literally do and say what I want and artistically I'm not handcuffed because like they have to, like I said, they have to appeal to a broader audience. So like, with me if I just have my own niche audience and invite my fan base that I want to talk to and express myself as an artist I can do that instead of having to you know, play like it's almost like being a politician like you can always you got to play the middle. You have to have to appeal to the widest base can really appeal to a niche audience, I guess.

Seth 37:45

I heard I heard someone say recently, and I don't know who said it. I feel like it was a theologian, but it could have been an artist, basically say, I want my music or my basically he was saying that music is music and he was talking about marketing and he said the moment that you put Christian on front of it. It's a marketing term. It doesn't make it anything special. He said, so my music is or that book is or that is what it is. But you have no business putting the word Christian in front of anything. Do you agree with that perspective?

Sean 38:18

That’s an interesting perspective, I think there's some validity to that. I think there are some things that are kind of neutral. I think when it comes to the art is like you can you can either talk about the light or you can talk about what the light allows you to see. I think as Christians we have we have that liberty. So yeah, I think and I think both of them are still God honoring, but you can still honor God by doing both. And of course, the light I speak of is Christ.

So we can talk about the light or we can talk about how we view the world as a Christians, what the light allows us to see. So I think there's some option kind of lean, lean more to one way and it is artists that lead more to the lean more to the other way. But I think we do have that freedom. So I think, like I said of a book, it's if it comes out like it can still be God honoring without being marketed as a Christian book, it can just be a book, but it can still honor God. So yeah, there's some truth to that.

Seth 39:16

Yeah, and it's and as I think about that after I said it, um there's something that holds like you know, a KLOVE for a Spirit FM, it Yeah, it's, it's palatable. So you get a whole bunch of people to come to the to the restaurant to make a horrible analogy. And then music like yours or like a, you know, a Sho Baraka or an Andy Mineo, you know, somebody like that or you can do work you can, you can do internal theological work with stuff that you're not comfortable jamming out to with the windows down in the summer. With people listen to lyrics that you just, I think, at least the stuff I listened to; what I'm listening to is a reflection of what I'm going through and so I don't always want people to know what I'm listening to.

Sean 40:04

That’s fair.

Seth 40:05

With that being said, I am curious what you're listening to because I find that when I speak to other musicians that's how I find better music. Usually you are in a different circle than I am so what yeah What are you listening to that that continues to feed you?

Sean 40:24

I'm so right now I'm listening to Jonathan Reynolds his new project Make Room is really good. Who else am I listening to? Let me look at my iTunes…what am I listening to now

Seth 40:43

All tejano-all the time.

Sean 40:47

(Laughter) Let's see here. So got actually Sho Baraka and Vanessa Hill just released a project that's a really good it's called So Many Feelings. It's a really, really good. Let’s see here…The Walls group there's a really good there's a girl the artist name Her. It's really good. Brick Liam, another guy, I think he lives in Dallas now. It's really good. Yeah, even some Rhapsody to like, she's a rapper. Listen to her.

Seth 41:23

Yeah, and at this point, I don't know hardly any of those names except sho Baraka. I had the benefit of being able to rewind it and listen again and write them down and get some other influences in my life. So, um, last, last question for you. So what is the place, I want to make sure I say this right? What is the place for worship in and or out of church? And so I asked that because I'm reading a book for an interview in the next few months. Talking about God is basically an eternal current like that. We can jump into and wade into and roll with. But worship at church should not look like four rock songs and a prayer, or three hymns and a rock song. So as an artist that goes to a church and sees both sides and I also kind of understand that as well as, as I lead some of the worship at my church, how, what should worship look like? Like how should that be cadenced for someone to be able to get the most out of it at church or out of church, I guess?

Sean 42:29

Yeah, man. So that's a great question. Um, I think the wise way to approach it is to not try to put rules on it. I think, because a lot of times that what that can lead to is to make it very legalistic; to say that something has to look like this or it has to look like that in order for God to accept that. I think God has given each of us different tastes and different things that we that we enjoy. It’s almost like food, like, there's no way everybody has different tastes like, the way you season your food I may season it differently, but doesn't make it bad. It's just different.

So I think you definitely want to…yeah, like I'm always leery about trying to put to say that worship should look like this and look like that. Because like I said, that could be dangerous, because it goes down that road of just be extremely legalistic. But number one, it should be, like worship should be something that honors God in the sense like it should. Doesn't have to be necessarily a certain temple or anything like that. But it should honor God like the lyric should be something that's doctrinally sound. It shouldn't be extra Biblical or anything like that. I think as long as the lines up in that. I think it can be worship, I think he can still honor God. Some. I don't know if that answers the question, but I mean, that's my mind on it.

Seth 44:00

And to build on the on the food analogy, I mean, if all I ever do is, is the Cinnamon Toast Crunch for worship every time I go to worship and again, that's not that's not the best analogy but if all I ever do is eat Cinnamon Toast Crunch and milk and so will you know, yeah, I'm never I'm not healthy. I'm not going to be Yeah, something's something is malnourished and so I like I like that so yeah, yeah, um well let's end on this, everybody, I'm going to need you to go either to band camp or to Sean's website or engage with Sean on Twitter. And so and so plug that a bit. Sean let's get you back in the top 20 if we can, let's let's go top 10 so where would you point people to engage with you What is the avenue that they can get ahold of you get ahold of your music?

Sean 44:55

Yeah. So the easiest way and honestly on my website, SeanCJohnson.com. I have links to everything on there. ShawnCJohnson.com have links to my iTunes, Spotify, my Instagram, Spotify, all of that. So shout out to calm or if you're on Instagram is at Johnson Johnson Twitter at Johnson Johnson. Or you can just Google, Sean C Johson and most everything should come up.

Seth 45:25

is there anywhere you won't go? I mean, we know you'll go to London. Is there anywhere you go? And I only ask that because somehow or another good, I'm good. They listen to music in Antarctica. There's like 100 people that live down there doing I'm doing real work.

Sean 45:45

Antartica..I'm sure they do. They can definitely come to a warmer climate and see me live…I’m not going to them. It’s not happening.

Seth 45:55

I'm sorry Antartica..I’m sorry. I didn't. Yeah, that's that's kind of Have to go on the show notes. Yeah, #sorryAntarctica.

So, thank you. Thank you for your time today. I'll let you get back. Yeah, I've enjoyed it. I enjoy I enjoy speaking to theologians and authors but that's not the only avenue to engage with God and so it's I enjoy talking with with artists and musicians as well. So thank you for that.

Sean 46:24

Absolutely right. Thank you, man. Thank you for having me on, this is dope.

Seth 46:46

The music in today's episode is from Sean's most recent release days like this fantastic album. Go and buy this album. Interact with Sean at SeanCJohnson.com And as always, the songs featured in today's episode will be listed on the Can I Say This At Church Spotify playlist. Thanks so much, everybody.