Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Daniel 0:00

I was in a seminary course with a cup professors trying to make this very points of how pervasive white supremacy is. And he said he will have a catalog and he said, All right, let's look, you know, every one of you, no matter which program you're doing at the seminar, you all have to take some core theology classes if you pull these up, right, and they're just called theology. And then there's electives you can do, you know, African American theology, you can do an Asian American theology, you can do a teen American theology. The point on is like, what you won't see a category called Euro theology or white theology. That's why, because that's just considered the baseline, that's considered the norm, right? The the European theologians who reflected on, you know, scriptures and wrote about those, those are considered the foundation of theology and then all these other ones are American, Asian American, Latino American they're considered exhilarated. They can they're considered to be kind of coloring in or filling in. He's like, that's just one of the that's just one of the everyday examples of which, which we don't even notice that we're white supremacy exists where that's a little deficient. Like we think of white theologians as supreme. They're the ones who have kind of final word and then The other non white theologians you know, kind of joining a chorus of it.

Seth 1:40

Welcome to another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I am Seth, your host. The conversation today is heavy. It's challenging. I had the privilege and the opportunity to speak with Pastor Daniel Hill, who is the pastor of a large multi-ethnic church in Chicago. He's also the author A new book that came out late 2017 called wide awake. I want to take anything away from the interview. So let me just say this America we, we have to push into the topics of race. It is not easy, it is not comfortable. But the sobering fact is that as a people and as a country, and this is me speaking, as a white middle class, man, we don't want to talk about race. However, we can no longer just sit back and let things be untouchable, we can no longer stand idle. When issues arise we've got to educate ourselves. More importantly, we have to educate ourselves on both sides, there is history to both sides.

What we have to learn will have value and what we learn to value matters. Do we value our status, our privilege, our history over others, or do we value the people that bear the image of our Christ? Let me say that again, people bear the image Christ. So with that, let's get into the conversation with Pastor Daniel.

Seth 3:39

Daniel, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast it's a pleasure to speak with you.

Daniel 3:49

Thank you. So that's wonderful to be on your show.

Seth 3:50

There's going to be many that are unfamiliar with you. I've become accustomed to you as I was researching the topic for this show and found your voice keep going bubbling up to the conversation. So I become a bit familiar with your background and your history. Can you kind of walk us through just you know, what makes you you kind of your upbringing in the church and lead that into what you're doing now? And then and then we'll proceed to talking a little bit about you know, race and the church and in the world that we live in.

Daniel 4:19

Yeah, sure. Well, I'm a Chicago guy all my life so born here born into the church, my father was a minister as well and also scholar; was part of one of the first study Bibles out on the market. so I'm sure I learned English word before this, but the first word actually remember saying dikaiosýnē my dad teaching me that Greek word so that's I've been familiar with

Biblical concepts it's pretty much I was a boy.

Seth 4:45

So the dika… what is that?

Daniel 4:47

Dikaiosýnē, the Greek word for righteousness or justice depending it's a translated But yeah, I remember my dad teaching me that. That's actually the first conscious memory of a word I have dikaiosýnē.

Seth 5:02

Not dada but, dikaiosýnē.

Daniel 5:04

That was his kind of claim to fame is he was a Bible scholar. So he would bring up original Greek or Hebrew with them and just preach straight out of the original text. And that's the crowd he drew is folks who kind of planted himself as knowing the Bible well, but we're looking for original language insights that they couldn't find on their own.

So that's the kind of church environment I grew up in. When I went off to college. I was not planning to go to ministry, my undergrad was in business and I came of age from the .com era. So I worked full time during college while going to school in a .com, and then joined an internet startup company when I graduated college, and that brought me out by Willow Creek Community Church, a large church here in the suburbs, and I ended up going on staff there and work there for most of my 20s and then planted a church I'm at now River City Community Church in January of 2003. It's in the humble Park neighborhood of Chicago.

Seth 5:57

So I'm not all that familiar with Chicago. It's it's on my list of cities to visit. I've been to many of the big ones, but not that one. So where is that in relation to I guess, you know, the Chicago that we all think of or the Chicago that we see on TV when we, you know, when we watch sports or that what's kind of that frame of reference for for the community that your church is nested in?

Daniel 6:19

Chicago has got like three main sections, the North Side, South Side, in the west side, each have kind of their own distinct personality. So Humble Park, where we're at is kind of right where the west side begins. And so typically, West Side associated is associated with just black but our neighborhood is half black and half Latino. And so we're kind of in a little bit of a borderland between kind of the center of the city and where it starts turning into the west side.

Seth 6:42

You wrote a book recently that came out in 2017, called White Awake, and I've read pieces of the book. I've not finished it in its entirety, but I've enjoyed reading it. And I will tell you, as a fellow Caucasian middle Income class man in America, I have recently over the last decade or so come to struggle with a lot of the same stuff that you speak about. And so kind of what was…why did the title of the book is very not off putting but very out there very catch your attention. It's in your face. And you're curious about it. So what? What led you to want to write this book?

Daniel 7:22

You know, I mean, looking back over the course of my life, there was a lot of moments where I think I was beginning to realize there's something more that I needed to wrestle with, but I chose not to, which, as an aside, I think, you know, there's a lot of conversation about white privilege and while, I think that's a conversation worth having at the end of the day. I think. I like how my friend Julian, a pastor in the south side finds privilege. He defines privilege as simply having the ability to walk away.

And with that simple definition, I can see how they're just as privilege over the course of almost my entire life where this has always been an enormously important issue in our country. But some of us don't have to deal with it if we don't want to and that was me most of my life, I worked at Willow Creek and you know, young 20 something minister everything was new for me including officiating weddings. And where this really began was it was the first cross cultural wedding I'd ever officiated. And that wasn't something I really paid attention to until the wedding actually came. But the groom was of Indian descent. And he told me at that the rehearsal dinner the night before, you know, would be taking deep into the Indian culture and was indeed and it was very memorable night and the music, food, the dancing, everything was a really incredible experience for me.

So I was feeling very swept up in it. So I grabbed them afterwards and just wanted to thank him for inviting me this world said, you know, “hey, I'm so jealous of you that you have a culture I wish I had a culture and just want to thank you for bringing me into yours for this evening.” And what became a very defining moment for me he's a very gregarious kind of fun loving guy became very serious in that moment, and then afterwards wedding, he put his hand on my shoulder. He said:

Daniel, you hope not only do you have a culture, but when your culture comes in contact with other cultures, it almost always wins. It would be great for you and everybody, if you would actually learn about your culture.

Then he walked back out of the dance floor. And that was despite the fact that there have been many moments in the course of my life where I should have been paying attention that was the one that really grabbed ahold of me. It was just very provocative. It was borderline offensive to me based on where I was at that moment. But this idea that I not only had a culture that my culture almost always wins when it comes in other countries, other cultures, that really became kind of the genesis of you know, a more intentional journey on my part to become awake.

Seth 9:29

I assume that was after the wedding because that's kind of a drop the mic kind of comment, like something you'd put on Facebook or Twitter, and then immediately block someone so they can't rebut. (laughter)

So how did that, you know, that happens to me a lot. Because people a truth is offensive. When you take away all the emotion, I've come to find out so he says this to you, and then where do you go from there? Or I guess if you know if it was if it was me here, you know in Central Virginia, you know Someone after Charlottesville says something, whatever it be, and then just leaves, you know, goes home. And you know, so how do you then how do you go forward from a comment like that?

Daniel 10:09

Yeah, I wish I could tell him more noble story. I mean, it wasn't like, “Oh yes, this is the truth I need to find more about it” it was more like I tried to talk my way around it and so my own head and kind of diminish him and diminish the comments. But you know, for whatever reason at that at that moment, you know, God, let that one stick, and I just couldn't shake it.

And so it was very much still a defensive reaction. But I kind of went on the quest to disprove his theory, you know that I had a culture, my culture always wins and to kind of form an argument with the intention of eventually going back to him and disputing it. But the more I kind of began to talk to people that weren't just in my kind of white middle class, cultural bubble, you know, the more I found almost a universal resonance with what he said. And almost it's kind of like, when you talk to people were thinking about this stuff. That wasn't even like shocking to them, right.

So it was so shocking to me, but it's like, no duh people were thinking about it. And so I began to realize that there's just kind of this whole world, this whole level of discourse happening that, based on kind of my white upbringing I had just never been exposed to and never really needed to enter into.

Seth 11:12

Like, what specifically? What would be some of those examples of, well, this can't be true, or this shouldn't be true. So what were those things for you?

Daniel 11:18

You know, I would say, you know, I grew up in an environment that pretty actively promoted colorblindness. And, you know, we actually use those words, that's how it functioned, you know, but in especially within our church setting, you know, so there's always this kind of intention behind theology to say, hey, “all people are created equal, God loves everybody, you know, and so therefore, we don't see difference”.

And there's those bad people out there who are racist, but, you know, we're good Christian people who see everybody is equal. And you know, that that made sense to me growing up to treat everybody as equal. So even though I periodically would have interactions with people of color, you know, I never took the time to consider what the impact of their experience of being a person of color might be in our country; because I just kind of looked at him through a colorblind lens, you know. And so I think that's some of the stuff where I began to wrestle with and say, you know, is there something more substantial to the system of race? Is there something more substantial to the way we've kind of organized ourselves and the way we see each other. And, you know, I can go with more to that if you'd like. But I mean, I think at a macro level, those are the kind of things are began to explore and just began to realize, like, oh, wow, this is like this. This is a deep rabbit hole. And I've just not considered any of it.

And I really should, it's not really optional, totally optional. The sense that my life's not really a risk because of this and so I’m never really forced to think about it. But for so many other people like their, their livelihood, their well being, sometimes even their little safety is dependent on them navigating these kinds of things. And I just began to come understand the fact that the kinds of things I needed to think about were so different than the kind of things that people who weren't white have to think about. We touched on it right there. So I was listening to a show.

Seth 12:57

You touched on it right there. So I was listening to a show.I can't remember the name of it, but it's all about the hit. Story of the Civil War. But it's told by people that, that are much more educated in the history of it than I am. And I am a banker for for a living. And, and I just just a few days ago learned that, you know, Protestant American plantation owners here in Central Virginia across the country, used black people as capital the same way you would use a tractor; but usually use them because the tractor was worth more as a way to secure secure funding for their farm. And so you'd have JPMorgan Chase, and that type of stuff, holding a lien on a person. And so yeah, I think I think you're right history is a big part of that. I remember I texted that to a good friend is black and I was like, I don't how is this? If I never been told this? And I don't think they'd been told it either.

So yeah, history is…history is whitewashed, it is what it is. And what is our white culture then you alluded to learning about it, what have you come to find out so when he says that it always wins. In the lens of what you do for a living in the audience of this show, how is a church does that how does that happen? How is the church has when we show up as a white church? How have we won?

Daniel 14:12

You know, I think that's where we have to, like, start to dive into the history of things. And it took me a while to wrap my head around this. But you know, there's these really triggering terms especially for most of us who are white, you know, like, for instance, the term white supremacy is often a very charged triggering kind of word. And oftentimes, because people when they hear that associated with the most extreme forms, right, you know, the combat boots, or swastika, or you know, Tiki torches, or whatever, but come and understand the history of what that term means is a helpful beginning. Though it's a charged word it's actually very straightforward term white supremacy is just, it's literally just saying whiteness is supreme, right, whiteness is superior.

And in that narrative that whiteness is what is most valuable, is such a foundational part of the experience of everybody who lives in this country where in fact I like the term. Bryan Stevenson is the founder of Equal Justice Initiative. He's kind of out your way. And I think his stuff is really worth interacting with. He wrote the bestseller. Just Mercy. But he uses term he calls the Narrative of Racial difference. And this has been helpful for a lot of the white folks who are trying to like wrap their heads around helpful for me as well. He says, the narrative of racial difference, it's a narrative that doesn't just recognize differences in race, that's actually not a bad thing. In fact, I think you can make a case Biblically, but God recognizes different cultures, different cultures are created in God's image, I don't think recognizing the differences is what's problematic. The problem is that when historically when we've recognized racial differences with men assigned value to human people, human beings based on those differences, which said some people are more valuable with what they see as a racial hierarchy, we said White is most valuable, and black is most inferior as evidenced by the anecdote you just shared there.

Like a black person to be treated as property which you could never put a lien against a white person right like this. They were fully human, you can't use them as an object, but a lot of people were considered less than human and Bryan Stevenson, I think, accurately says that if you don't understand the history, the nerve of racial racial difference, you won't understand why things are still as problematic as they are. Because there are certain systems that were built on the never racial difference, like slavery, that have been overturned. But the narrative itself has never been challenged, this idea that we basically created a racial hierarchy that says whites most valuable blacks least valuable everybody else finds their meetings between those two.

And that narrative is so powerful and potent. And you see in the news every day, and you hear it in the national discourse, even in the most current debates about immigration, you know, there's kind of these know, legendary comments about certain countries that are, you know, expletives. And then yeah, you know, which really represents one end of the narrative racial difference, and then there's why can we have more immigrants from Norway, which represents the other end. I mean, that's just the nerve of racial difference. That's how it communicates is that whiteness is what's most valuable. Places like Haiti or Africa are these valuable, and everybody in between, you know, finds their worth based on that.

And so I think that's a real important starting point in this to realize that there's this narrative out there that the enemy is not a person at the end of day, the enemy is this narrative. It's this lie that says human value is tied to where you fall in the racial hierarchy. And so in that sense, this is not unique to white people to wrestle with this. This is on everybody. It's just that because white people live in a system that says, white is most valuable, even for white person verbalizes a disagreement with that it doesn't change the fact that that's the air we breathe, it's all that’s around us. It's the DNA of every system and structure in our society. And I just I would contend that without understanding how powerful that narrative is, and how pervasive it is, historically and present times, I think it's, I mean, it's just we're really handicapped in our ability to love our neighbor as ourselves, much less love ourselves. If we can see how serious the threat is of that narrative.

Seth 18:31

What would you say to someone that says, Well, that's fine. But is there a way that I say this? Is there a way to elevate another culture without necessarily devaluing mine?

Daniel 18:43

I don't think we want to be into developing other cultures and I think that's when we're completely anti Biblical that point, right? Because all people are created in God's image. It's like the song that's the opening page of Scripture is the Imago Dei that all people bear the image of God was talking about elevation or under, like whenever somebody's been looking For anybody who's putting down we're like, instantly in the realm of like serious sin category. And so I'm not ever proposing that the way you fix it is by re-elevating somebody else. I mean, it's just, we have to we have to subvert and eliminate the entire structure that raises up some and presses others down.

Seth 19:15

Yeah, it's the wrong it's the wrong metric to grade worth or the wrong that's probably a bad way to say it. But um, yeah, the wrong the wrong, the wrong measurements, the wrong unit of whatever it needs to be.

Daniel 19:27

Well, yeah, if I can even jump it, it's like, not even Yeah, I think that's some of the work I'm trying to do with people is to like realized, like, this isn't just a dynamic, I think it is the central dynamic in so many ways, this idea that some people are held to be more human, some people be less human. Like that is the foundational spite, like at the end of the day, and it's not just kind of like, Oh, yeah, that's like that's, like if someone actually realizes that right like that. That's the narrative that's alive as the broadcast to every second of our society because some people more human, some people are less human, which I would argue is just as powerfully being broadcast today as it has ever been. It's just an absolute confrontation to how God proclaims you know, humankind is made, which is according to his image.

Seth 20:07

Yeah. So you can choose to value the status quo, or you can choose to value an image of Christ. But you have to choose, you have to choose.

Daniel 20:17

Yeah, that's right. Yeah,

Seth 20:19

I've heard you say, and I don't know, or maybe you've written it or said it. But you talk a bit about you know, that you're in a privileged culture when you're learning, because you can go to a seminary and learn about African church history or other culture and church histories. Can you speak to that again, a little bit?

Daniel 20:38

Yeah, I think those are some of the so yeah, when I talk about that, like when people say, Gosh, white supremacy that is such a trigger word. I don't think of myself as a white supremacist. I'm like, Well, of course, I mean, none of us think of ourselves as white supremacists but I'm not actually when I say about supremacy. I'm not actually talking about somebody's individual actions. I'm talking about the way that every system in society continues to preference and normalize and even hold up whiteness as superior.

So that's an example I think is a very clear example is like in almost every seminar I know. But I was in a seminar course with a cup professors trying to make this very points of how pervasive white supremacy is. And he said he pulled up a catalog and he said, All right, let's look you know, every one of you, no matter which program you're doing here in the seminar, you all have to take some core theology classes, if you pull these up, right, they're just called theology is like, and then there's electives. You can do, you know, African American theology, you can do Asian American theology, you can do a teen American theology they put on is like, what you won't see a category called euro theology or white theology. Why? Because that's just considered the baseline that's considered the norm, right?

The European theologians who reflected on you know, scriptures and wrote about those, those are considered the foundation of theology and then all these other ones after American, Asian American, Latino American, they're considered auxiliary they can they're considered to be kind of coloring in are filling in. He's like, that's just one of the everyday examples of which which we don't even Notice that we're white supremacy exists where that’s a literal definition of like, we think of white theologians as being supreme. They're the ones who have kind of final word. And then all the other non white theologians, you know, kind of join in on chorus of it. I think examples of that in churches and organizations and schools, like ways in which whiteness is just communicated as kind of the standard or the norm or even the epitome of what people should be striving for. It's not people, combat boots on behind curtains doing evil things, it's just this kind of deeply ingrained thought process that whiteness is superior.

Seth 22:32

Well, this is an oversimplification but Jesus, I would argue is been whitewashed. Every picture you see of Jesus, they're all white. And the moment that you throw out an African American Jesus or any other nationality Jesus, which I think are honestly more truthful every nationality should be able to have Jesus look however it needs to look as Jesus represents everyone, but I mean he's been at least my opinion, co-opted by, by caucasian skin.

Daniel 23:01

And I think that's another very powerful example of white supremacy. I remember talking to a pastor who saw a picture of black Jesus, and he felt like that it was literally a heresy to do. And I was like, You seen white Jesus is your entire life? Have you ever called that heresy? And he had to admit he was more uncomfortable seeing a black Jesus than a white Jesus. Right? And it's like, well, like I think your point if you're going to guess I mean, he was a Palestinian, Middle East, Carpenter outside most of the day right?

If you had to guess what side is he was on probably on the dark side. But even if you just take that out. It's like, why is it that a black Jesus makes them uncomfortable and white Jesus doesn't, right? I think you're right. I think it's like, the ways we've internalized the white supremacy along the way, this narrative, that one is more valuable.

So if you're going to err, go on the side of white light, and we don't think that stuff overtly, but that really is part of the messaging we've received that if you're going to miss on one side, this on white because that's going to be the safer bet. And so I think that's a very powerful example of one of the ways that we just internalize that stuff without even realizing it.

Seth 24:42

I was on a committee to hire a pastor for our church here locally. And I remember one of the early early stages of it we had someone in and they'd said you know you need to vision the community that your churches in and whether or not you're comfortable with it. If your community within a few mile radius of your church is mostly African American or mostly Latino or single moms or Asian or whatever adjective you need to use, that should be in your interview pool.

Not that they necessarily get in, you know, in some form of spiritual Rooney Rule for lack of a better metaphor, but that you should intentionally seek those out instead of disqualifying people, because they didn't come from the right seminary, or they didn't come from, you know, from they're not the right color, or they're not the, when you look on the wall of pastors throughout the church, they don't they don't fit the mold. So how do you, and what are your thoughts on that a bit? Would you agree with that?

Daniel 25:37

Well, I think I understand where that's coming from. And I think there's perhaps room for that consideration, in my estimation, that’s still closer to the surface and farther from the root. You know, so I think it comes down to the white pastor who was, you know, trying to be very intentional, higher a white pastor. They made it a church wide mandate to white church and they made it a church wide mandate to the next associate pastor that they hire was going to be a person of color, without question like, just what's going to happen.

And so he was very excited that I understood the intent and neither one discourage that. But I said, you know, if the deeper problem is the kind of conspiracy of white supremacy in so many ways, which is what I think is a deeper problem. I think there's this kind of unchallenged, unexamined, unexposed kind of reality of how whiteness is still such a dominant force not just in society but in the church. And that's to me, that's the core of the book White Awake is you know, I don't see that as being unique to just white people like that's a force that everybody has to recognize. It's just that most people who are not white see it much sooner and our reckoning with it, most of us were white don't see it, and therefore it's very, almost like hostile to us when we're told about it.

So I said, if that's really the challenge, then you know, tell me like where's your…you don't need a pastor of color to be able to take on that challenge, right. In fact, I would say hiring a person of color on staff is helpful only to the degree the church is ready to start talking about the presence of white supremacy, right? So if you're Church is already ready, then perhaps that person can be a really helpful asset and going deeper. But if you're actually gonna bring a person of color to be the one to name that, like what happens when he starts seeing it, or she starts seeing it within the response, right?

And he is he like when he went pale, he's like, he probably would get run out of the building, if you talk about supremacy. I said, Well, then I think it's great to hire person couple, why would you do that to them? Right? Like, like you want to mean that, like, you know, you should be the one because there's a lot of concrete things you could do in your church to start to ready them for somebody like that coming on. It's just under the guise of well, intention, but like, you can actually harm him and probably the church by doing that, because they're not ready to even have this conversation.

So that's one thing that I tell people is like, I think multicultural great, but only to the degree that it enhances your ability to talk honestly about this stuff. And if it's actually a way to skirt haven't talked about it, I actually think it's worse to be multi culture. I think it'd be much better for an all white shirt to have honest conversations about the historical and present reality of some of this stuff, and begin to do the work and name it and see the focus of our demonic kind of backing behind it and learn how to kind of develop theological vocabulary for naming it and, you know, and combating on way rather see a white church, be intentional about the conversation they're having then to have a church become slightly multicultural, and become even less conversational about this stuff.

Seth 28:25

what are some of the ways then that as a pastor, you know, if there's a pastor listening, or someone that's church planting, or someone like yourself, what are some of the ways then as a leader of a church, that you are able to what are some things to look for to recognize that, you know, your church is at a tipping point, we can go back to the status quo, or they're there, I can see X, Y, or Z and they're there. We should really begin to lean in and do this messy, hard work. What are some of those things that you would that you would look for?

Daniel 28:55

It sounds so basic what I’m going to say at first but I just don't think it is. You know, there's a core level Jesus is associated with truth, right and the devil is associated with lies are John 8:32-44, Jesus talks about how the devil is a liar. His native tongue is that of a liar is the father of lies. Jesus talks about how he's the truth, the truth will set you free. John 14:6 He says I’m the way, the truth and life, right? So. So there's power in exposing lies and its power and telling the truth. And it's basically that sounds most like most, capital M, most white churches don't ever talk about the truth and lies behind race. And the lies is this narrative, you know, of racial differences narrative that there's human worth attached to where somebody falls in the racial hierarchy. And that's, I mean, to me, that's indisputable, there's 1000…it's so easy to get material on that and to build that case.

And then the truth, of course, is that you know, not only that human human values is found in the imago dei, but that there's also a war around us that we can't just proclaim that actually we have to attack all the things that dehumanize and distribute you know, attempt to really under God's creation, and, you know, my experiences, that if somebody will either just start to tell the truth and lies, they'll their church will start shaking, and not necessarily in the most comfortable of ways.

But even just a basic truth like that, that the system of race is built on a lie, that human worth is tied to racial makeup, and that the truth of God's kingdom is to dismantle that. That's more than what most white Christians can handle. And so I would say, start there and see if you can handle that kind of very basic conversation on truth and lies, and if they can handle it, then that sets the stage to start saying, how do we live more deeply into this truth and how do we combat these lies within our own lives, but and in our neighborhood and in society? And that turns into a great conversation and I think I love that conversation. Somebody can get there, but my experiences and I hate to be so pessimistic here but my experiences just most white churches can't actually have even that basically conversation because it's too threatening to kind of a house of cards that they've been built to believe around race.

Seth 31:00

Yeah, no, I agree. I remember after Charlottesville, both many friends because I live just 20 miles west of Charlottesville. So right after that happen, you could feel the tension in the room and we all knew. Well, my perspective was if your church is not talking about how this is not of God, this is just evil, then you're in the wrong church. But so how, how then do you? How do you make sure you guard against people feeling so offended or so taken aback or so hurt, that they stop listening? How do you make sure that that doesn't happen? Because you'll hear people say, Well, you know, I don't want my pastor to do that my pastor or my Deacon, or whoever they're just supposed to, you know, I want to come to church to feel good. I want to come to church to feel like I'm, you know, being a good Christian. So how do you guard against that?

Daniel 31:52

Yeah, well, I mean, my answer to this is going to be specific specific pastors. I realized the audience probably much broader than that, but I do think for white pastors, there is a count the cost with this, you know, what's most celebrated in our day and age is churches that grow fast, have big budgets and big staffs. And you know, we're kind of all tempted to try to get on that train. In talking honestly about this stuff kind of goes in the opposite direction, right, like, to your point that I don't think it is possible, I think, if you've got a bunch of white folks in your congregation, and that's not been historically how the churches talked about this stuff, once you start talking about it, most of them are not going to say, Oh, good. Finally, you have been waiting for this. Most are going to react poorly to it, you have to be prepared to stand on the truth and to be prepared to kind of listen to people who are upset, you have to be prepared to kind of Shepherd folks through that you can be prepared for the fact that some are going to leave despite your best efforts. In those that's all costly stuff that all requires a lot.

And if it was just a social issue i don't think can be worth doing. So I think there's a theological conviction that has to form that this really is a mandate as part of the establishment of Jesus's kingdom, the mandate of growing full disciples to tell the truth and you know, be able to see what's happening around us in society. And so I do think there is a cultural conviction that has to form. And then there's a count the cost. I wish that wasn't true. I really do. I wish I could like spin this to say it's a great way to kind of take your church to the next level in terms of its growth and impact. But I think evidence suggests that when pastors begin to talk about this openly in white churches, they usually go backwards before they go forward. And I think that's a just genuine comfort costing thing that has to be part of the equation.

Seth 33:23

And I think you're right, yeah, I mean, you see it everywhere. So I want to not to oversimplify things, but come full circle. And then and then I know we're coming closer to the end of our, of our time. So I want to talk briefly about race. So I mean, race. I've got three kids, none of my kids were born knowing that they were white, or that white was a way to identify yourself. So obviously, it hasn't been around for forever. But my question is, is race at all helpful for you know, the church or for humanity? It all has to have any purpose or should we just throw it all out?

Daniel 33:58

No! To me, I distinguish I put ethnicity and culture together in one category, but racing different categories. So I think it's important to differentiate. I think ethnicity and culture, I think are very important. I think, you know, we have passages like Revelation 7;9 that says when we're on the other side, when we're in heaven in our glorified states, God still will see the differences and ethnicity and nationality and culture that will be part of the heavenly chorus, right? So God's clearly not colorblind. God clearly wasn't colorblind from very beginning, ethnicity, culture, I think our reflections of god they're imperfect on times or even sinful, just like people you know, they need to be redeemed they need to be thought about so I think culture is needed to be talked about and redeemable. The system of race though, that we've created that really is based on colonialism and slavery, right? We had to justify why European nations were taking over nations of mostly people of color and then dominating them. That's how race formed, and then slavery or how race formed, we needed some way to justify owning human bodies. And the only way to do that was to say black people are less human. So the system of race really is designed To be human and belittle everybody that's not white, and then to an artificial way, hold up whiteness is a standard. So like if we're truly talking about race(s) there is nothing. Yeah, it's, it's not as bad as simple as diabolical, it’s cruel. Yeah, eliminating edge is the only task. I think that's before us when it comes to race.

Seth 35:19

I agree. And I try to, you know, yo, everybody says, but my son is in a stage of his life now that he comes home from school and is beginning to realize the differences between people. And you just hear it some of the words he says and my daughter to a lesser extent, and I can say as a parent, and I'm sure every parent deals with this. I just it's so hard to navigate. And it was really hard through the last presidential election, because you got the signs and everybody talking about everything I want to end our time with. You talk about there are stages of waking up. Can you go into this? I believe there's seven, I might be wrong.

Daniel 35:53

Yeah, the idea being that for those of us who are white because there's like a lot of science behind this, you know, how kids come to even understand their own sense of cultural identity is influenced by the kinds of conversations they're having, the kind of things they're hearing in society. And so for a lot of, for a lot of children of color, they're told very early on that they don't fit in that they don't belong, that they're less valuable because they don't look a certain way. So they have to process of stuff from so early on, whereas most of us who are white, we tend to be just immune to those messages because they're not threatening to us.

So we may not walk around thinking we're superior, but the reverse is true too where we're not receiving messages that feel threatening and putting our sense of value, you know, because of what we're hearing so it's just for most of us are white the earliest so usually happens is 20, sometimes later, where we begin to start to seriously recognize that there's this racial system and these kind of messages around it and so it I don't know how to say it other than that just kind of a handicap right? Like none of us are ready to deal with this once the light bulb goes on.

So the light bulb is kind of the first stage. So what I'm just trying to talk to go through, there tend to be the kind of ways white folks go through, you know, sometimes we're defensive. Sometimes we're not defensive and listen, but we feel super disoriented, disoriented, another stage, sometimes we take it very seriously, we feel a tremendous amount of shame that we're white. And we're part of a community that’s, you know, done a lot of horrible things, people of color, sometimes we end up on the other side of it, we think we're like, enlightened white person is better than everybody else, right?

We tend to kind of zig and zag in these different stages. And so I just tried to promote my own experience. And just, you know, close to 20 years now walking, the white folks are trying to understand cultural identity, I try to map out seven different stages that aren't necessarily linear, and they're certainly not once you through what you're doing through forever, I think you tend to come in and out of different stages, but I try to just put language around some of the stages that I think we go through as we get a clear and clear sense of how the world works and how we can kind of rise above that and live a different kind of way.

Seth 37:51

Sure. And so in brief, so the first stage you're saying then is a light bulb goes off.

Daniel 37:58

And the second stage I call denial. Most of us the first time we hear this don't want to believe it's true and tend to be defensive and dismissive of it. And for some people, they stay in that stage their entire lives, you know, but that tends to be the first one, once if somebody can get through that disoriented tends to be the next stage. It's just, it's discombobulating when you think you understood everything, and you start to realize there's a whole other reality out there that's really powerful and pervasive, and we just never seen before.

So it just feels like somebody changed the rules on us all of a sudden, you know, and so, learning how to be resilient and those learning how to kind of trust in who we are in God, that becomes a key part of the disorientation.

Yeah, shame. Shame is a big part of it. Often times I see people feel, yeah, feel like they're kind of less than once the light wants to go deeper and deeper into it. self righteous as a stage that I talked about where you kind of think, you know, once you get deeper into it, you tend to kind of quickly get to the point where you think You're better than all the other white people. You know, I think there's a lot of destructiveness in that stage two. And I do think there comes a point where you start to become really awake to this stuff, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean you know what to do, but you're starting to really see it, you just start to see it around you going into environments, you can see it right away, you can see the ways that certain stances, certain cultures are held a higher certain ones are good old, you know Western people to be more human, some less humans. You start to see it everywhere. And that's, it's both freeing and perilous at the same time.

Because you see it all around you, you don't know what to do. And of course, the last stage, I think the action stage should be the last stage is active participation where, you know, you you, you see much more clearly used to your community with other people of color who see you've got kind of support system around you in terms of knowing what kinds of actions really make a difference. And were you very intentional to live your life in a way that not only as a witness to a different kind of way but actually actively tries to dismantle you know, kind of this evil system that a little into humanizes other people.

Seth 40:00

I hear you say that and I hear correlations to something I saw a while ago from I think it was a psychologist James Fowler I think is his name and he's got these six stages of faith and it sounds similar to that, you know, you have something that you hold this just a preschool level, just surface level. And as you mature, as you age, you know your faith in whatever your religious tradition is, or I guess in this case, you know, your ethnicity or your culture or your privilege. You know, you question it you become comfortable with that and some people never move past it and other people come full circle to being in a place where they can just serve other people.

And they've moved beyond all the other garbage for lack of a better word. I'd like to end with this. So what are some as people are listening and they want to, either they feel convicted, or, or, or they feel motivated to begin to learn more about the history of both white culture and the cultures of others and how those two can share power. What would you say to those people? Or who are some of the authors like yourself or pastors or or speakers that they can begin to engage with, to, to try to do this better?

Daniel 41:13

You know, I'm trying to show my hand in the title of the book. I think that the work is less about doing something more about you know, becoming more aware and awake, which isn't its own self in its own sake work. So, you know, I think bottom lining it for somebody, it's doing the work to see the kind of history and power of this narrative that says human value is tied to where you fall on the racial spectrum.

For somebody that's white I think there's a deep amount of self introspection that has to happen there where I assume anybody's listening to this was engaging they already outrightly racism, I don't think you should be on here. We're still subscribe to that. The the deeper work I think, than just rejecting racism is to actually begin to go back over the course of your life and examine yourself kind of look at where did you hear those messages that whiteness is superior and that blackness or Asian, or Latino, or native is you know, less human and an inferior and whereas starting to starting to take note of the fact that, you know, we've been hearing this our whole lives and to be being recommended with that a little bit.

You know, I think that's some of the internal work. And I think the other hard work, it takes a while, I think to get clear on this. But the other hard work is to start to learn how this is not really just an individual thing, that it's kind of embedded into the systems and structures of society, where schools operate off of this narrative, workplaces operate off this narrative, neighborhoods to operate off of this narrative. And you know, that's where social change really happens when we can kind of call out and dismantle that narrative within social systems. But we have to get practice before we can do that we've got to be able to see it faster and with more clarity. And learning to see it in faster and with more clarity I think is the work in once you can start to See that and realize that white people aren't the enemy. That's never that's never the point. But this narrative voiceprints is the enemy that a very much as a lie that is very destructive and it has to be dismantled really at all costs. I think that's the work to position ourselves people to see that in a way where we're not defensive, we're not feeling attacked, we're actually seeing is legitimate threat to both our neighbors and ourselves. And we're all starting to work together to try to name that and attack it.

Seth 43:25

Well again I'll plug the book. For those listening. I'll link to it in the show notes. But please go out and buy the book. It is the portions that I've read and I fully intend to finish it over the course of this week are fantastic. Seek out Daniel on your social media, engage with him on YouTube. And so where would you point people to Daniel to do that to to engage in a dialogue with you if they if they feel so lead?

Daniel 43:48

My Twitter my social media handle is @DanielHill1336 1336, I've also got a blog at pastor Daniel Hill. com Kind of time share some thoughts on so any of those are viable ways you can hold me.

Seth 44:05

Well thank you again for your time today. Thank you for the for the open and honest discussion I have and I've enjoyed it. Thanks very much,

Daniel 44:12

Well thank you, I really appreciate you hosting me on here. Thank you again.

Seth Outro 44:43

I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Daniel Hill. I am personally challenged by not only the work and the ministry that he's doing, but the way that he's doing it in I think that so many of us could do so much more if we would just apply ourselves and recognize when the game is rigged. Try to elevate others to the same rules. Church continue to do the hard work. Continue to wrestle with things and continue to ask questions that you normally wouldn't ask at church. I promise you from personal experience. When you wrestle with the hard topics, you find Jesus there. You find God there, and your faith will be better for special thanks to Eric neater for the music that was used in today's episode. You can find more information about Eric by his music at EricNeader.com to find that link in the show notes. I encourage you to listen to the newest song that he has out this year called Heaven is where you are. It's a beautiful song. As with all the episodes and all the shows and all the music, the Spotify playlist Can I Say This At Church will be where you want to pick those up. A huge thanks again to the Patreon supporters for your continued support of this show. For those of you that have not yet made that leap Please consider doing so $1 a month is all that it takes. If you're on this, you probably have loose change on the desk, or at home, in your car for $1 consider it. Thank you all for your listening. We'll talk to you next week.