Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

Back to the Audio!

Seth Intro 0:40

Hey everybody, welcome back to the show, this is...I think it's Episode 102. And that is insane in and of itself. Before we get started some announcements, head over to the website. CanISayThisAtChurch.com, click on the store button. swing by there, see what you like. I plan to get myself a few things for myself for Christmas. It’s another way that you can support the show if you're unable to do Patreon or for some reason unable to review the show, but there are some fantastic things to grab their see what you like.

And that leads me beautifully to a huge thank you to the patron supporters of the show. If you haven't done that yet, consider clicking that button going over there seeing what level there is no right or wrong answer you feel like. If you if you feel led or you feel like this show is done something spoke to you-you shared it with a friend you know, whatever that is consider supporting the show. I am especially thankful every single one of you this time of year so yesterday I had to renew everything for the next annual year. It is literally because of you every single one of you patrons that that can happen and so I am so thankful have big plans for next year. And so as I alluded to in Episode 100, I would love to do a live show somewhere. And so expect a survey to pop up somewhere on the website of some possible places to go. Gonna have to you know, hit a critical mass to make that happen, but I would like to make that happen so I will make some kind of a pole or something that goes on there. But I would love to do something live and see if we can also get a guest there, make something special of it way outside my comfort zone, but I'm really happy to try it. If I’ve learned anything these past few years, when I get outside my comfort zone, a special things happen. And I'm excited to try to do that. So enough of that.

So if you haven't noticed here, at least in the United States, we are in the middle of a political season. Yesterday at recording this intro Canada had their election and I honestly don't know how that went. I should probably look that up. But there's so much talk about air quotes, ‘othering’. You know, the people in Canada, the people in the United States, the people in Mexico, the people in Colombia, or Panama or South Africa, or it doesn't really matter, the people on this arbitrary line that our humanity has drawn that says “we are us and they are them”. Those lines matter and they matter all the more as people start to rhetorically talk about what they're going to do to protect our country or what they're going to do to defend against someone else invading the country.

But I have news for you those borders are arbitrary. They have come and they've been moved. They don't honestly really matter in the kingdom that has its eyes focused on something bigger, such as Jesus Christ. And so the conversation I had today with Gena Thomas, is a conversation about that, but a reframing of it. So what is it like to care for the children that are separated at the border? What are some of the reasons that they're separated? How is the church complicit in that? What does it mean to have human dignity? And then what do we do with all of that? Like, literally, what do I do? Because I don't know what to do. So I really hope that you like this conversation. I hope that it moves you in the way that it moved me said this a few weeks ago and social media. This book was deeply moving. I think there are a couple reasons for that, but so deeply moving. And so here we go. The conversation about being Separated by the Border with Gena Thomas.

Seth 4:17

Gena Thomas. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Gena 4:20

I'm well thank you so much for having me.

Seth 4:22

Yeah, thanks for sending me a copy of your book and being on and I've really enjoyed engaging with you on social media like it's been I've really enjoyed it. So a lot of people will say they do that and then they never do. So I appreciate you actually doing that. It's it's been it's been very, I've enjoyed it. So welcome again.

Gena 4:39

Yeah, right back at you learned a lot from some of your other shows that I don't know much about, contemplative prayer and the Enneagram and all that good stuff. So I appreciate all the work you do to

Seth 4:51

Do you like the Enneagram?

Gena 4:52

Very much so.

Seth 4:53

I still haven't decided if I do. I’m fine with knowing that I'm a five. It doesn't mean…

Gena 4:57

Oh yeah, you've decided?

Seth 5:01

Well, I was talking with my pastor the other day. And he's like, dude, you're five. I was like, why? And he says the fact that you have to break them all apart 28 different ways before you can decide—you are a Five.

Gena 5:13

Yeah

Seth 5:15

and he was talking not just to me, but to other people. But I thought about it and I don't think he's wrong. But also we talked about like integrating and being healthy. And then, you know, going further along the little triads and I can see how when I'm in a bad mood, I act a different way. And I think I'm more often act that way than I do, the way I would want to act. And I also have, you know, speaking with my wife and a bunch of other things like, yeah, the way that I probably act, most of the time is not very safe or healthy. So I got to work on that. But I do it so often. I thought for the longest time that that's what I was, even though it's an unhealthy version of me like it's a very dictatorial…dictator….dictatorial, what's the word?

Gena 5:58

I don’t know that's a good question. I’ll have to look it up I'm a five too.

Seth 6:03

Authoritarian…? Yeah, that's it. Like if the kids don't listen, like no, no, listen to me, this is what's going to happen. And if you don't do this, this is what's going to happen. I'm gonna tell you why it's gonna happen. You shut your mouth, you're 10...you know

Gena 6:14

(laughter)

Seth 6:15

Which is not the way it should work. So that is why that's not why I have you on. So tell me a bit about you. This is my favorite question that I ask. What makes you-you? What are some of those high points, the low points and then kind of blend that into what you do today?

Gena 6:30

Yeah, well, I am a five as well. So I really like to research things I like to understand and observe things. I, my husband and I, we were missionaries in northern Mexico for about four and a half years. We were seven months married when we moved down there. And we ended up starting a coffee shop ministry was kind of more like a social business and it was a ministry. But we started a coffee shop and worked with local community there kind of helping out in impoverished areas and I was just really struck by the poverty and really felt unequipped to even offer any type of solutions. Which led me to then go on and get my graduate degree through Eastern University in International Development. And that really was the catalyst for what I do now and where I'm at and why I am really just seeking justice. That is definitely the thing that makes me tick the most. It always has, but I've never really understood it as deeply as I do now.

And my first book is all about merging development principles with short term missions practices, because of long term missionaries. We were in Northern Mexico and saw just a lot of the damage kind of front and personal that could happen when short term teams came and kind of did their own thing. And I struggled with that a lot. And then, really, the basis of the book comes from the Biblical concept of justice and what is justice? What does that mean? And my conclusion is that most of the time when we do missions work We're doing charity work rather than, than justice work. And so I kind of laid that foundation in my first book, which really led me to even get involved in fostering to begin with. So which is what we're about to talk about.

Seth 8:12

Yeah, fostering is a big thing. So there's a couple people in my church that do fostering, and I know our church does like a foster ministry, where …hat do they call it? I'm going to speak way out of turn, if I get it wrong, you know who you are if you're listening. I'm sorry that I got it wrong, because I will see you on Sunday and I apologize. But I won't put her name on blast here.

So apparently, like one of the big things locally here is if there's a foster placement, and I'll be real honest, I don't actually know how a lot of that works. You know, you get that call and you're getting a kid, hope you’re home because here we come. And they don't really have anything. And so one of the things that my church through this ministry is done, which I think she started along with some other people locally, is there's like a store of bags for men, women, or whatever the right verbiage is, where there's toiletries, there's underwear, there's clothes, there's toothbrush, there's stuff that you need. Because a lot of the foster parents weren't really expecting that to happen (a child arriving today). It's just one of the things and I'm sure there's so many more things I don't know about.

Gena 9:12

That's awesome.

Seth 9:14

You talk a bit about this a bit in your book but why fostering? How did how did all the other stuff that you do and other countries why did that make you feel called to foster?

Gena 9:23

Yeah, um, it was quite a journey for me. I started traveling internationally when I was 16. And I had seen a lot of different situations in which there were very impoverished children and I really like desired to adopt from a very young age. I actually had never desired to have children biologically, from the moment that I started seeing some of that stuff and so that desire to adopt when my husband and I got married, I was like, this is a deal breaker, dude. So are you in or not? And he very willingly said yes, but also wanted compromise and wanting to have at least one child biologically. And so we decided after our first child that we would start looking to adopt, and we had our first child in Mexico. And so then we started looking for opportunities to adopt. And at the same time, like I said, I had started the online program, that master's degree program. And so I was learning a lot about how little I knew about the region that I lived in and that I came from. And I realized that in a lot of my travel, it was easy for me to see the needs of others when I was in another country, and very difficult for me to recognize those very same needs in my own backyard. And so that whole concept of “white savior life”, right as, as my friend Ryan, who just says, we're all recovering white saviors. If we can get to that point, that's the best that we can be.

And I definitely believe that and feel that I'm on there as well. But things did not work out for us to adopt in Mexico. And when we return the United States, we started learning more about foster care and really, that was from just kind of better understanding local needs and recognizing that there are vulnerable children in the United States that need just as much help and support and love as all the black and brown babies that I love to hold and show others that I'm holding on on Facebook, right. So I started kind of researching that and we started to take the classes, it's a 10 week thing, at least in the county that we took them in so it's a pretty serious and deep commitment. And then there's like, several different things you have to do after that. So it's quite a long process to get involved in. But it's very important, I think, for it to be so long, because it's such a difficult journey. And if you're not ready and prepared for it, then it really does a lot of damage for everyone.

Seth 11:45

I’ll just be upfront. And I may take this out. I don't know. So I wrote a bunch of questions. I did want to talk about White Savior, but I think in the book, you call it a God Complex. And I can't say this person's name. So I'm going to try. So you talk about or you're quoting somebody that's quoting Someone else have a Jayakumar Christian’s God complex term that was borrowed from Jurgen Moltmann, which is funny is Jurgen Moltmann is a harder name to say than the other one because of all the extra dots. But that's the one I know how to say better. So yeah, break that apart a bit because I think you're right. I have a lot of friends that are not white, and constantly saying, Yeah, but look at it through this lens, like look at it through this, like you're missing the whole point. Like I hear what you're saying, Seth, but you're not wrong. But that's not like there's a semi colon here and there's 28 sentences after it. So break that a bit of how do you view that, like, what are we doing and how do we not do it?

Gena 12:34

Yeah, I think so. That's Jayakumar Christian, who wrote the book, what is the book called… God of the empty handed and he breaks it down as you know, there's these different areas in life where we kind of become the person in control-the person who has all the answers, and it is a God complex within us. And a lot of times I think for those who have grown up as white American, and maybe even Christians, we're very much in the dominant society. And so as White Americans, as Christians, all of these things are the majority in our country and in our nation and it's very easy for us not to see culture. It's easy for us not to see different aspects of what we look at, because we're so used to being around other people who look the same as us and who also look at the world the same as we do.

And so these God complexes are within us in which, basically, we play God in the role of other people. And I think it's easier for those who are typically in the dominant group to do this. And then the God complex in the less dominant group is one that says that you're not worthy, right? And so we have these two opposite ends of this balance beam where we're rarely ever balanced. And on one side, you know, we're saying we are daughters and sons of the king, right, and in that aspect, we can do whatever we want. And on the other side of it we're saying we are the worst sinners ever we can never do anything right; and I think that the gospel lays out for us a path in between those too recognize that there's a tension between that and and that there are times when especially as a white American woman I think that things are the way that they are for reason that they should be this way but I'm not seeing the whole picture like you were talking about. I'm not seeing underlying systemic issues right oppression because I don't have too; I'm the one doing that oppression so I don't have to see it.

Seth 14:31

Yeah, I want to be real honest for a minute so the beginning, what third, of your book was really hard for me to read. So you tell a story about a foster child Julia correct? And but it's not just like her story single is awful. Well, again, I'm choosing to focus there there are other parts that are not so awful. So can you kind of described for those listening that probably have not read the book yet. And if you haven't go by it's a fantastic book, but it'll hurt you. Especially if you're someone like myself that you just don't want to deal with raw emotions, it'll hurt. I don't think that many people, especially in the West have any idea what actually happens at the border for immigrants or migrants trying to come across regardless of their age, but specifically for kids. Like the struggles, the sexual parts like that is just horrendous. But as you feel comfortable how would you try to describe that for those that haven't read the book of you know, hey, regardless of what you see on CNN, or Fox News, or MSNBC, or Google, here's what's actually happening based on your experience.

Gena 15:39

There's so much to it, it's really challenging, and I kind of feel bad in a way to generalize a lot of it. But there are so many of these stories that In Julia’s case, specifically, she's from Honduras, and there's a lot of violence happening there. There's a lot of gang activity that's really kind of taking over in a lot of ways, different aspects of life. And so, specifically for their situation, they were coming up to the United States economically, for economic resources and the whole point was to gain employment to get enough money to pay for medicine for another member of the family. So it wasn't because of actual violence that they were fleeing, it was because of economic oppression. And Julia came up with her biological mother, Lupe, and her stepdad, Carlos. And when they came up from smugglers, so they had paid the smuggler $7500 USD to come across the United States and essentially just get released to Border Patrol, that was kind of the plan. But at the last stop in Northern Mexico, the smugglers decided to to keep the biological mother as a hostage. Essentially, it turned out into to being sexual exploitation. So then Carlos and Julia came across the river and ended up in a Border Patrol facility and then they were separated.

That separation is a little mysterious as to why they're separated but there was a “zero tolerance policy” was happening at the time, even though it wasn't public until several months later. Which the zero tolerance policy was basically the US government trying to deter families from coming up to the United States; trying to deter immigrants from coming and just separating mothers, and fathers, and children right on the spot. And we can talk about more, more of that in a little bit. Basically, Julia was separated from her stepdad and then went into what's called Office of Refugee Resettlement.

So those pictures of the cages that you see at the border, they really are there, they really do exist. And in the front, two sections of the specifically the facility that I visited, which was probably the one that Julia was, was that as well, the front two sections are for parents and children. And then behind that is a section specifically for unaccompanied females, and then there's another section unaccompanied males. And so they all get placed into this holding cage. And within it kind of depends on situation. They're not supposed to hold them for longer than 20 days, something like that it within a detention facility, whether that specific about first one or another one that they go to after they're processed. But it just depends on the situation and the manpower that CPB (Customs and Border Patrol) has at the time.

But then she was released to Office of Refugee Resettlement and unaccompanied minors who then go through them are placed with, typically, it's someone that someone knows within the family somehow. And so for this specific situation, it was the stepdad’s sister, she was already in North Carolina, and so Julia was placed in what's called a sponsorship family. The Office of Refugee Resettlement, the only thing that they do to close their cases within 30 days of the child being placed, they make a phone call, and there's no telling what's going to happen on the other side of that phone call. Somebody might answer somebody might not but that's all that they are responsible to do.

So she was living with a sponsorship family. And the only way that we even were able to connect was because she started wandering the streets one day, and while everyone was away from the home, and the police found her, and when they found her, she only spoke Spanish. So they ended up taking her to DSS. And our social workers knew that we both, my husband and I, both spoke Spanish. So that's how she ended up in our home.

Seth 19:31

Why would the goal be to get collected by CP? It seems that the the goal would be to get in and assimilate and not get caught. Like why would it be to get caught?

Gena 19:39

Well, um, I guess. In some situations, immigrants are then released and then can kind of live out until they are sent back. That's not happening as much anymore with this administration. But I think specifically in their case, I think it costs more money for to be smuggled to the point where you kind of avoid Border Patrol, that's going to cost more. Does that make sense?

Seth 20:07

Gotcha, Yeah, it does.

Seth 20:46

As I was reading through, I think it's the chapter on immigration. I'm saying that wrong. I don't speak Spanish very well. But you talk about I know as Julia is coming up, and is it Reynosa, is that the name? So that name for me was so familiar. And so I pulled it up on Google Maps. And I just look on the other side of the border and it's because of McAllen (TX) and I texted my mom was like, didn't Nana and Papa used to live in McAllen and we would go down there and visit? I am from West Texas not far from-a couple hours from the border. But Laredo, Lamesa, Presidio, those were high schools that I would play in sports. So a lot of the names were all familiar, but that one in specific…but it made me just…I was a child when I was there (McAllen), but I remember not even having a care in the world. And I can remember actually walking across the border, having lunch And then walking back. But that was way before 9/11 so all the rules were different.

Okay. So when people talk about the border, it is always political, every single time and it quickly becomes very hateful, very fast. And so I'm going to use a sentence that you use.

When the veil of Oz is lifted from white evangelical American eyes.

What does the church do with that? Like, because that is a big thing like it will, I can see people walking away from the church, people firing pastors, because the pastor speaks out about it. Like, how can the church do that? And then as well, how is the church currently complicit in not doing anything if that makes sense?

Gena 22:26

That's a great question. I mean, I think that we have an obligation as Christians to see the humanity and other people. I think if we claim Christ as our Lord and Savior, then we also claim that the Imago Dei is imprinted in every single human being. And so that's where I think that we have to start with this stuff, whether we are Democrats or Republicans or independents, it doesn't matter, we have to see the humanity of other people. To me that is non-negotiable as a Christian and I'm not saying that I always do that right or that I'm called to do that perfectly every time.

But we must call each other to do that, because I feel like that is a divine impression that we have that sets us apart from other people, from other belief systems that say that that every single human being is made in the image of God. And for that reason they have innate dignity that no one can take away. I think that's first and foremost where we start as Christians. Sadly you are right there are a lot of churches who are not talking about that or if they are its very negative.

I've heard stuff from the pulpit that is just so incredibly dehumanizing. I can't really believe it. And so I think whether you are a church leader or just a churchgoer, it's very important that we recognize that Imago Dei and that we also use language that reflects that.

So we don't call human beings illegals because a human being is not illegal. Actions are illegal, but human beings are not, and so we pay attention to the language that we use and we pay attention to how other people are talking about it and we speak up when they're saying things that are derogatory or demeaning.

Seth 24:06

Has there ever been a time at least in your research, and I say research because as a five, I feel like you’ve probably broken it apart because that's at least that's what I do when I find the thing and I latch on, I don't let it go. Have we ever done it better than what we do now or have we just not been as aware of it? Like, was it not vocalized or publicized? Has there ever been a time that we as a country, and I don't mean, like at the founding, when literally people just came and goes, they want it? Right, that we've done it better than that?

Gena 24:34

That's a great question. I don't know that there is. I think it's just kind of history repeating itself. When you think about forced family separations, we can go through our own history and realize that that's happened to every non-white group of people in this country from the beginning; it's nothing new. I do think that we have more visibility to it now than we ever have before. But also we have more visibility to the amazing Christian workers on the border who are in the midst of this and on the battlefield every day in and out, toiling their selves and their bodies and their families for the sake of that dignity.

Seth 25:11

I saw an article and I didn't read it in full, I think it was yesterday. And so for those listening yesterday would be August 14, right? Yes, August 14. There was a minister at the border that was escorting unaccompanied minors across the border. And I don't know what happened with that. I'm assuming he got arrested because that sounds like something that would happen. But I remember seeing it and I read a little bit about it, and then the Washington Post tells me that I had read my amount of free articles for the month and so I didn't, I didn't pay for that. I only got three, three paragraphs because you know, why wouldn't I want to read a great story. But I found myself questioning, you know would I have the gumption to do that. And I would like to say yes, it's easy enough to talk here in Central Virginia and say, “Yeah, of course. Absolutely. I would. I'm actually let's do this thing”. But I don't know that I could, which I'm sad to admit out loud.

Gena 26:04

But it's honest, right? I mean, we always will want to be better people than we are. And there are moments in time where we just don't know. I think it's more holy to say, I don't know what I will do in that moment than to say, Oh, definitely sacrifice my life for this person.

Seth 26:26

I would like to think that I'm a big enough man to do it. Me too. And I honestly think that I would. But I also know I have three children of mine and a wife that I love dearly, and that also matters. I'm curious so every time that I talk about immigrants from either Honduras or Colombia or any of the other what I'm going to call banana republics, most people have no idea what I'm talking about. They think that I'm talking about the clothing brand that the Gap company bought. And you talk a bit about banana republics and American capitalism complicity in creating the reason that they're even migrating to begin with. And most people I find have no idea what I'm talking about. And so I have to send them a bunch of reading, and then they don't read it. So how would you kind of break that down? As a nation what has been our complicity in even causing the problem of immigration into the country to begin with?

Gena 27:19

Yeah, well, there's a couple of different things. The first thing is with banana republics, you know, we have had these multinational corporations that go to other countries and essentially exploit people there. And in the case of Honduras, there was one situation in which it seemed like a really good idea where workers were offered a house alongside of their work right. But then the mistreatment that followed to the workers and the exploitation that continues to happen throughout the world, especially when we are so greedy about our capitalism, that was then kind of used against them to say, you either keep this job that's a horrible situation; that's treating you poorly, and you keep your house or you lose your job and you lose your home.
And so like you just said, you know, you have a family and you have a life that you're trying to protect as well, that you're trying to maintain as well. And so for these workers, that life was kind of juxtaposed next to, you know, good working conditions. So really the level of greed, and, gosh, just the exploitation that we do to immigrants, especially even in the United States, when they come into United States, especially those who don't have papers, it's so easy for their employers to exploit them. Because the threats are just, “hey, well, if you don't do this, then I will report you to ICE” right. So these these horrible working conditions that maintain the comforts that we have in this world have perpetuated this, the cycle and it's really sad. You know, we often talk about as Americans, as white Americans, we often talk about how capitalism is the best, right? But when you really dig down into it, it's just as greedy as every other type of government, sadly.

Seth 29:07

I don't know that there is an ungreedy type of go. Because there's people that people that run them. I'm sure they're all, in their most altruistic form, good as a thought, right? You can make the same case for the church, “good as as a thought” and then we really screw it up. All the way back to I was using this example the other day of I would talk about gun rights with somebody which is way off topic. And he's like, Well, you know, this, that and the other and then you know, why did Jesus you know, why did why if he didn't want us to be armed to be able to use that, why would he tell you know, the disciples to get a sword, and then come? I was like, you're reading that wrong, like, literally, I'm going to pray don't hurt anybody, like just hang tight. I'll be back in a minute. I'm going to go talk to God for a minute and, and then come back and guy lops his ear off and we both know you don't aim for an ear, you aim for a head and you get an ear. You don't aim for an ear but if you can then man props to you. That's marksmanship. And then Jesus has to apologize and look at him and be like, that's not what we're doing here. What's right with you? You're missing the whole point. And I think so often church misses the whole point.

You reference someone that I have spoken to in the past, but I'm curious your take on it. And so Kathy Khang, who talks about, you know, assimilation and raising your voice, she takes it in a different direction. But I want to kind of get your thoughts on, let's assume that things go perfectly. Let's assume five years from now the administration is in such a way that we actually genuinely think people matter just because they happen to be people, and we let them come in. How do we allow people to enter our culture without losing their own and without losing ours? Or is that even the wrong way to frame the question?

Gena 30:53

I mean, I think that we're dealing with us in all different aspects of life right now, especially when we talk about diversity in the workplace, diversity of thought in the church. Trying to create safe spaces without making sure that people assimilate to your dominant culture. And, you know, I talked about this a lot in the book, but it was so difficult to do that with Julia in our home because our home was our culture, right. And just kind of realizing so much of…when I even went to her home in Honduras, I saw things that I thought, oh, wow, this is why, like, for example, going to the bathroom, it wasn't a big deal to leave the door open for her. But it's a huge deal for us as foster parents with a male child in our house as well. And, you know, at her house and her home, that's not something that that you have to do regularly. And so kind of recognizing that there are different cultures, I think is first and foremost.
I think Daniel (Hill) talks about how easy it is for us as white Americans to not even realize that we have a culture and It's so important for us to first and foremost recognize that we do recognize it's the dominant culture, and then start kind of seeing things through other people's eyes. And I think step one in that direction is becoming friends; its relationship, or that's what justice really is, to me is relationships.

And so recognizing that and saying, like, hey, for my Honduran friend, it's not a big deal for a seven year old to be cooking supper. It's just not. But for us, that seems incredibly strange. And that shouldn't happen. Well, why should it not happen? Like, then kind of go through those those things? And I think in order to do that, especially in the church, we have to, we have to really understand what the Gospel is and what it isn't and how much our culture has co-opted what we think the Gospel is.

Seth 32:47

Let me break apart that last part. A lot of people say what the gospel is, what isn't it?

Gena 32:55

The Gospel is not white Jesus. I think that's the biggest thing that we need to recognize is that the Gospel came to a brown skinned, marginalized man who, like you said was non violent. And his idea of power is the complete opposite of my idea of power. And always will be, and I will always have to recognize that and work against it and understand that humility is power.

Seth 33:23

Yeah, for the people not listening in the back, rewind the 15 seconds because Gena is preaching at the moment. just rewind it, and then come back to here.

Seth 33:57

You talked a lot about lament, and I haven't touched on them in some time, but if I remember right, it was either Mark Charles, or Professor Soon Chan Rah, who I know you quote [in this book]. I don't remember who said it to me. But they had said something like 60 or 70 or 58, or some high percentage of the Scriptures are lament. And if it's alright with you, you wrote a lament and I'd like to read a bit about it. If you're allowed, if that's fine,

Gena 34:21

Yeah, sure that’s fine.
Seth 34:23

And then kind of get your take on what does that look like as a nation as we lament because we have a lot to lament for: we’ve got mass shooting everyday basically, I saw…I actually saw at a store the other day or an online store that I can buy a bulletproof backpack for my kids. How fantastic is that?! And I hope the sarcasm is dripping through the microphone for that. But there is so much to limit so much filament. And so, here is what you wrote. Let me find it.

I lament for the adulting you had to endure

and I think your talking about when someone left her home. I believe her name is…hold tight and I'll get it… Karen,

I lament for the adulting you had to do at such a young age for the bonds that must get prematurely cut for control you should have over your life but don't, for decisions made without your input, for the environment you had to grow up in. For the foster put before your name, and the prejudice that will come from it.

And then you go on and it is beautiful and gripping. But how do we wrestle with lament both personally and in our families? And then in our churches? And then what do we do with that? Because that's a lot of emotional energy, that will just get wasted into nothing. So what do we do with all of that lament?

Gena 35:37

Yes, individually, I think it's important especially speaking, both of us are five it's important to feel the emotions that we feel. I think I have to personally tell myself, don't not feel this right now. And I think it's easy for me to feel the pain of other people sooner than I can feel my own pain. I don't know that everyone is like that, but I feel the pain of the world sometimes. And I'm willing to feel that pain more than I am willing to feel my own pain.
And I'm not saying that that's necessarily a byproduct of white evangelicalism, but I will say that that was definitely an influence to that is that, you know, you're not allowed to cuss. You're not allowed to cry, you're not allowed to. If you do cry, you cry in private, if you're a woman, it's okay. If you're emotional. If you're a man, it's totally not okay. Never, ever, ever, are you allowed to be emotional.
And you know, even when, like when I was thinking about some of the different black men who had been shot recently and like several different ones with police brutality, one of the moms was just crying and weeping over it. And it's important to listen to that. It's important to hear through the cuss words. If they're there, that's totally fine that they're there like hear what she's saying behind that and don't just turn it off and say, “Oh, it's just a mother morning a death” no there's a lot more to it than that. And so I think individually we have to recognize where we're at personally, but then collectively as the church I think we need to make more space for lament. And it's easy in this world in this like, current social media world to kind of show everything that is wonderful and good and nice and on Instagram, right? Everything looks perfect, and we don't show our bad hair days, right? We don't show our big zits that pop up on our forehead every day.

Seth 37:30

Everyday is a bad hair day (joking) look at this hair (lack of)!!

Gena 37:33

Look you're already one step ahead of the rest of us. (Laughter both)

But I think I quote Medina in there where she talks about how we should be allowed to be ugly in church, right? We should be allowed to have these moments where we just break down, and it's okay to have an ugly cry, and it's okay to to weep with someone else when they're weeping and the certainly the Bible tells us to do these kinds of things. Professor Soong Chan Rah talks a lot about the triumphalism of the American evangelicalism, right…and how easy it is for us to have praise songs and hype songs and all that kind of stuff, but not to really sing through lament, how to use lament as a way to process our spirituality. And I think it’s very important for us to do that.

Seth 38:16

So last question on lament, and then I want to end with something that I think could be a call to action, maybe it doesn't, who knows? If a church, your church, my church, the Church, just there's church, literally, I'm looking at across the street at the Presbyterian Church, if they could somehow figure out how to embrace lament, assuming they didn't lose every person that went to that church. That would probably change the congregation base. What do we do in the communities that we're in with that fuel? With that reservoir of emotion? What are some things that we can pour it into, or what are some organizations either at the national level or the local level at the state level that we can pour that emotion into?

Gena 38:53

Well, I think that if I could give only one piece of advice it would be to recognize that people who have been oppressed regularly understand lament a lot better than I do a lot better than we as white evangelicalism does. And so if we can find those churches in our community because they're there and partner with them, and pay attention to what they're lamenting over, and what ways that they are not being treated fairly, or the Imago dei is being demeaned in their lives, that I think that's probably the most powerful thing we could do, because they are part of our community, and we need to be connected to them, and learn from them.

Seth 39:33

The last question is political on purpose, because I also realized that I did not say the name of your book. And so let me do that real quick. When we're talking about people being Separated by the Border. That is for today, that is an entirely political issue. It has to be because it's a government issue. The church has a voice, I have a voice. The people that live on the border, have a voice, both sides of the border actually have a voice, not just my side.

So You quote someone named Sarah Quezada, because I think I said that right, that she says

the inherent problem of border patrol is that we're addressing a humanitarian crisis with a national security response.

Gena 40:16

Yes.

Seth 40:17

How should we then address it? Like if you were the person? I don't think it actually is the President, the person in Congress that goes, we're done. What would you change because you have a touch a pulse of it that a lot of us don't. Being that you've been there. You foster children that have been there, you have a different viewpoint?

Gena 40:38

Yeah. Um, I think if I were in a position of national leadership, then I would go to the border and find the organizations who are already working there. And I would have conversations with them. There's, there's this amazing Sister Norma. She's an amazing Catholic nun who works there. I believe it's in McAllen and runs shelter, a migrant shelter, to help those who are being released, but have to then go back and report to their court date. And there's there's all kinds of other organizations who are working along the border, I have a whole list of resources on my website, Genathomas.com/resources, that kind of goes through an actual list of things that people can do. But I think first and foremost, like find where people are actually being treated like human beings, again, in that image of God, and replicate what they're doing.

Seth 41:31

So you just said the website, where else do people go to find your stuff? And I can't remember the due date of the book, October what… October 12?. Dang it, I knew it had to really had only four or five options, and I missed all of them. October 29. So that will be available everywhere that fine books are sold. That's when I stole that from somebody Luke Norsworthy I think but I like to say that fine books are sold. That's where you'll find that and I'll make the same commitment to you that I've made a few people as I walk through like Book-A-Million if I see it, I'm going to move it to the end cap because that's my commitment. That's my commitment to you; someone probably fix it later but I don't care.

Gena 42:07

A full service podcast host right here, this is awesome!

Seth 42:10

I am addicted to book. So if I already have it in my hand right there, but where would you point people to to engage with you converse about the book with you to possibly have disagreements with like, yeah, whatever when you point them to

Gena 42:26

Absolutely. So best place to find me is on Twitter, @GinaLThomas, and then that same handle on Instagram, Facebook, all the places, but I'm trying to quiet my life a little bit more and not be everywhere. So Twitter is the place to find me.
Seth 42:41

Thank you again, Gena, for coming on.

Gena 42:44

Seth Outro 43:00

So put yourself in the mindset of Julia, you know, that traveled and was separated from her family. Literally her family is trying to do what they can do to support themselves economically. And all the reasons that go with that, whether or not you agree with the premise or not, they're still (valid) reasons. It's still a human that bears the image of Christ, and it still matters. So what do you do with that? How do you sit with it? And I still wrestle with what I saw Gena, you know, I have so many responsibilities and obligations here. What do I do? And we touched on it a bit when I spoke with Jeremy Courtney, not everybody's called to go, not everybody is called the foster but you're called to do something. I know that you are because we're all called to do something. What is it?

Really hope that you were moved by the conversation today as I was very special thanks to one of my favorite artists, he's McNease for your music in this episode, you will find the links for today's tracks on the Spotify playlist for Can I Say This At Church which has also been turned into an apple music playlist. Check both those out. Please remember to rate and review the show tell a friend share it with a friend. Can't wait for us to come back together next week. Be blessed everybody.