Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears, software, and the help of a friend and so it may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.

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Seth 0:25

Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast, I'm Seth, your host. I'm excited that you're here. I'm excited for you to hear the upcoming interview, I have the delight to sit down with Benjamin Corey, who has written a book Unafraid and you'll hear us reference it many times about moving beyond a gospel, or a Bible, or a faith, or religion based entirely on fear. How that is not Jesus, how it is nowhere close to Jesus, the risk that we take when we do that, and the distance service that we do to our culture, to our faith to our children to ourselves, when we engage in a study of Scripture, that is entirely rooted on fear. I'm excited for you to hear it. And so let's do this…Benjamin Corey.

Seth 1:37

Benjamin L. Corey, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Can I Say This At Church podcast? It has been it's been a long time coming a hard thing to organize it. So I appreciate appreciate it finally coming to fruition.

Benjamin 1:50

Yeah, no, absolutely. Seth, I appreciate having me on the show. And after all the back and forth with several different people. I'm glad that it finally worked out for me here with you.

Seth 2:00

Yeah, me as well. So I wanted to discuss In brief, just, your latest book a bit about you. And then wherever that leads, and I feel like that could go off into too many different places. And so for those that are unfamiliar with you, which who knows how many people or what people's streams are on how they got here? So can you just briefly give a bit of your background? I specifically like that you were in the military. It was just a lot about you that I think most people would hear our “progressive Christian“. Of course, he was raised differently or whatever. And so I think that's interesting.

Benjamin 2:38

No, definitely. I mean, I grew up the, you know, the the oldest of four kids on a dairy farm in rural Maine, where my dad is still an organic dairy farmer; milk the cows twice a day. And so grew up in just real small town, farming community. Mmost folks were kind of conservative evangelical, and was kind of raised in that conservative, evangelical arena. In high school, I got pulled more into what I would call fundamentalism, as I, you know, was interested in travel and interested in mission trips. And so, you know, when I was a sophomore in high school signed up for my first mission trip that that summer, my sophomore year in the organization turned out to be definitely much more hardcore type young earth creationism, you know, no mix bathing type of boys in the back girls in the front type stuff. And but, um, so I ended up doing a two summers of mission trips with them in high school, both in Russia and in Eastern Europe.
So that kind of got me pulled more into the fundamentalist direction, where I think I was definitely kind of, I was kind of always a misfit of sorts, and I was kind of looking for some sort of belonging. And, you know, the odd thing is, I never really belonged in fundamentalism, I was even the misfit there, but there was at least a structure to it that, you know, kind of made me feel safe. I think, you know, even though I was raised conservative evangelical, my folks divorced when I was eight, and life became really unpredictable for most of my childhood. From that point on just back and forth. I think, at one point, I had in fifth grade change schools, you know, three times and you know, spent part of the year semi-homeless just crashed for a half year at my grandmother's house. And there's four of us kids that would all sleep on the pullout hideaway bed in the living room, and you know, take turns three in the bed, one on the floor kind of a thing. And so life was like really unpredictable and unstable. And I think when I got pulled into fundamentalism, it was meeting more of a deeper primal need for stability and security, even if it was based on things that were ultimately toxic.

And so from there, I ended up after getting out of high school, went on with that same fundamentalist organization to their Bible school in upstate New York, where I really wasn't a good fit even though I tried, I just could not toe the line. It was as if I believed everything that they believed. I, you know, kind of sort of went along with the program, but I think the structure just became too much for me, and there was no grace. And, you know, by the end of the first semester, I just started to realize that something didn't sit right in my spirit, something didn't feel good or right about this. So over Christmas break, I dropped out of Bible school and enlisted in the military and ended up spending the next 10 years of my life in the military. I did seven consecutive years overseas, you know, been in hospital fire zones from, you know, the Balkans to Kosovo and went through 9/11 in Korea, you know, with full Chemgear and gas masks and wondering if Kim Jong Ill was going to you know, do something while we were distracted, you know, with 9/11. So did an entire decade there, you know, became professional military education instructor teaching, you know, the younger troops how to lead and then ended up taking an early retirement after 10 years. And from there, I moved back to Maine and decided to use my GI Bill and went to conservative evangelical seminary went to Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary outside of Boston, Massachusetts, where I did two masters their masters of theology masters and Missiology. And then I went on to Fuller Theological Seminary and got my doctorate.

Seth 6:45

Nice.

Benjamin 6:47

Sorry, that's a long answer.

Seth 6:49

No, no, that's fine. I think it's important to understand where people come from because it…where you come from matters and whether or not you stay where you come from. And you keep that mindset or you move past it, it matters where you came from, because there are pieces that you can always there are pieces that you keep and pieces that are important, and where you come from as part of what made you you today. So I'm curious. So you said when you came back, you used to GI Bill and went to a conservative seminary. So what would be the difference between that seminary versus the one that you didn't fit in with?

Benjamin 7:22

Oh, my goodness. So let's see. So when I went to Word of Life, it was much more of here are the questions you're allowed to ask. Here are the answers memorize them?

Seth 7:35

That sounds similar to my school? I went I went to Liberty so very…

Benjamin 7:39

Sure, you know, Liberty and Word of Life, were kind of partners like because Word of Life wasn’t credited and Liberty was one of the few places where you could go after a year of life and actually have your credits count. It was like, you know, but the funny thing was I remember being at Word of Life and they actually considered Liberty to be liberal. And they were, even though they had this partnership, there were these warnings about, you know, they would say, you know, we had the president of Word of Life back in the time was a guy named Jack Wyrtzen and he would say, “Yeah, well, at Word of Life we have Jack Wyrtzen but at Liberty University, they have Jack Daniels!”

Seth 8:15

I can't imagine anyone calling Liberty liberal Well, maybe Oral Roberts or Pensacola,

Benjamin 8:22

So Gordon Conwell, I have nothing but the highest esteem from Gordon Conwell. Gordon Conwell, very conservative, evangelical seminary, very well respected academic institution. The difference was, certainly they were conservative evangelical, but there was certainly a wide diversity of, maybe not a wide diversity, there was more diversity of thought. But there was also truly the freedom to ask your own questions and come to your own conclusions. I mean, I wrote papers, you know, disagreeing with the professor and still got an A on it. So it didn't impact the relationship at all, as long as you were doing good academic work and using your mind. There was, you know, it was definitely like more of Calvinist leaning as far as the staff. But, obviously, I didn't turn out to be a Calvinist. But, you know, certainly my years there were massively broadening, specifically in that they had many charismatics, and they had many mainliners. And so for me growing up, we were taught that charismatics were possessed by demons, and that that's how they spoken jibberish, you know. So to be sitting alongside charismatics, and to, over time, get to know them and be like, Oh, these guys like sincerely love Jesus, like, I you know, I whether I agree with this or that, like you can’t deny that man, these guys are totally following Jesus.
And, the same thing with the Episcopalians, and the Methodist, who, you know, growing up, we were taught that those mainline churches like Methodist, Episcopal, you know, congregational that they were quote unquote, social clubs. And they were nothing more than social clubs.

And so basically, you know, as I went through my, you know, you know, my three and a half years of Gordon Conwell doing those two masters, it just really kind of shook the stereotypes and what I was taught first about other people, but then about theology. And for me, it was realizing that even though they were conservative - evangelical, they actually were they actually, you know, undid a lot of fundamentalist theology, which they thought was extreme such as dispensationalism and end times. And so for me that I think having the end times, you know, theology be upended for me was really like the gateway that led to everything else, because that's the one that started asking me like, oh, if I was wrong about this, what about everything else?

Seth 10:59

Yeah. And so that segues beautifully into your most recent book. And for those who are listening, you've written more than one book, I think the one before this was called Undiluted. And I can't remember the subtitle predominantly about Jesus…

Benjamin 11:13

Rediscovering the radical message of Jesus…

Seth 11:14

Big fan of talking about Jesus, I like to always end on Jesus if at all possible, but your book Unafraid, and I referenced it before we started recording made me laugh out loud, there's a portion in there, that you say I forget how many numbers, but the 872nd time that she prayed to ask Jesus into your heart, you're hopeful that that was it. And and that made me think of the Spiritual Emphasis weeks that we'd have at Liberty where they bring in a massive speaker, and we're going to keep doing this altar call, until half of Vines enter is empty, we got it, everybody needs to be on the floor. So yeah, so your book? What is kind of the beginning of that? What made you want to write your most recent work? What is the goal?

Benjamin 12:02

It was an interesting process in that, you know when, you know, when the idea for my second book was bought and put on a contract, it was actually a totally different book. It was actually bought as a book called American Heresy and was going to be just kind of this general book critiquing, you know, things like Christian nationalism and stuff like that. And as I sat down to write it, the process was really, really difficult for me in that I was I don't know, if I consciously realized it that at the time, but subconsciously, like, I had so many things swirling under the neath the surface in my life.
I was questioning so much, I was frozen with what to do with my future, so much of my life felt like it was falling apart. And so, you know, I would spend entire days in front of the computer and realize that I had, you know, written like, three sentences and deleted two and a half of them. And so I definitely started to panic at one point, because when you get a book contract, it is kind of like borrowing money from the mafia, they give you money up front to write it. And then when the due date comes, it's like, if you don't produce…somebody, go show up at your house for that.

Seth 13:19

They are your leg and taking your laptop.

Benjamin 13:21

Yeah. So I ended up just spiritually crashing, as I sat there and didn't know how to write the book. And in the end, I was in counseling, and realized that everything that I was struggling with in life kept going back to fear. And so one day, my counselor asked me, he's like, “Who is it Ben? Who is it?” He's like, ”you're dancing for somebody, you're trying to appease somebody, you're trying to impress somebody”, he said, ”Are you trying to impress your mom, your dad, who is it?” and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, it's God,”

I am so afraid of God, that I am frozen in my life and don't know which way to turn, I'm scared to make any decision. I'm scared to plant my flag on this theology firmly or that one, because I don't want to be on the wrong side of God. And so I realized that my life was in part, like, sort of crumbling because my faith was crumbling. And that was deeply rooted in the idea that I just had this fear of God. And so one day, I just sat down and started writing about no longer wanting to be afraid of God. And all of a sudden this entire new book was born, about moving beyond fear based faith. And that was kind of the process how this book was truly born from some of the deepest and most painful places inside of me, which is certainly why in this book, I are more vulnerable and authentic than I've ever been in any other area of my writing.

Seth 14:53

There's a part in the book that you talk about sitting in a chair, basically. And I'm assuming it's not long after that, and basically having a conversation from both points of view. That was moving, I read that I actually read that part twice. I let it sit for a while and came back to it; you don't hear men specifically talk about emotions? And it's, I don't know, I don't know.

Benjamin 15:17

I was really deliberate in that. I wanted to frame this book, bookend it both as beginning in my counselor's office, you know, and ending in my counselors office in that, throughout the process, I was obviously, severely depressed, I was grieving different things in my life.

And I think seeking help, and working with a counselor is really a healthy choice that so many of us need to do. And certainly from the Christian environment I grew up in it was pretty frowned upon. You know, my grandfather died by suicide, you know, from untreated depression. And just came from this cold where you didn't really seek help, because it was so stigmatized. And so I wanted to be really deliberate about talking about the role of counseling in my process. And that's why I began and ended the book that way. And yeah, that story about sitting in the chair and doing kind of that role play. When my counselor you said it we needed to do that. I mean, I thought it was so hokey, I don't do things like that. It just is so cheesy.

And I was just doing it to go through the motions. And it turned out to be one of the most profoundly like moving spiritual experiences I've ever had. And yeah, I almost think that those are like, my favorite two pages in the book.

Seth 16:37

Yeah I would agree. They were definitely the most, you tell a lot of stories, but they're not. They're very topical. So the people that know you best will know the full story behind that story. But that right seemed to be one of the stories that was raw. So you talked about moving past of faith in God based in fear. And so when you've broken everything apart, you've escaped from a Gospel of fear, there's just pieces laying on the ground and you don't know where and you used the word earlier which side to plant your flag on? Where do you stand on? How do you begin? Or how does someone listening to this begin to know, okay, this is the piece that I can pick back up and chew on and work with and begin to have some foundation as opposed to just, I'm never coming back to this pool. This water is tainted, it's going to kill me look at the news, it's poison, I don't want it!

Benjamin 17:33

So one of the foundational concepts in Unafraid is, is almost like this subtle critique of deconstruction and how back in the day, you know, you know, the emergent movement would deconstruct theology, and how maybe sometimes progressive Christianity, you know, deconstructs theology. For me, I think a season of deconstruction can be critically important when you know, things, certain things, need to be dismantled. But at the same time, I felt like in deconstruction and other leading voices out there the one step that is often missed is the okay, but what now. And so for me, I realized that my deconstruction process was starting to leave me empty handed. And I panicked both because of myself feeling empty handed, but also realizing, you know, that, there are thousands and thousands of people that could potentially be the same way, because they followed me and I didn't want to leave them empty handed.

And back when I did podcasting, had Rob Bell on my show, and was talking to Rob. And I asked him, I said, “Hey, you know, what would you say to somebody who just doesn't know what they believe in anymore?“ And he would say, “I would tell him, that's not true. It’s not true that you don't know what you believe anymore. What is true is that right now, you're keenly aware of some things you no longer believe, but that's not the same thing.“

And so that kind of became like, I call it in the book, like a decoder ring moment, in that I was like, ”oh, sometimes naming what you don't believe that part that you just described? Like, what do I do with this actually lead you to what you do believe? Because you just have to ask the next question. And so in the book is really about Okay, so I don't believe in this, like Angry God anymore that I have to be afraid of. So what do I believe? Okay, so I don't believe in this anymore. So what do I believe? And it was really founded upon the importance of asking that second question, so that you can move beyond. I think certainly in a lot of the, in the book, I critique my own kind of folks in progressive Christian circles and how we just kind of get stuck, and maybe we don't move beyond. And so I wanted to ask that next question, like, “Okay, how do we move beyond? Okay, great. This isn't true. I don't believe this anymore. But what now?”

And I really do think that when you name out loud, those things you don't believe in anymore? That really, it's just a matter of asking that next question. And you can often almost instinctively answer for yourself, if I don't believe the future is full of doom and gloom, what do I believe? It’s open to possibilities.

Seth 20:47

I want to name a few of those things and get your thoughts on those. And some of this is from what I see you write on your blog, which I highly recommend people go and read. Front and center in my mind, just specifically because of I'm here in Central Virginia, about an hour north of Lynchburg. And Shane Claiborne's about to have a thing down there in April and Jerry Jr. is not happy about that. And he wrote a piece today basically saying, Yeah, and so I find; I don't know why. I used to be there again, I went to liberty and I was all in it Christian tribalism seems to be the church as opposed to the church. And so I guess my question is, why do we as a country, or as a planet, use Christianity as a litmus test for anything for church for revival for politics for universities? Why has that become the status quo in your opinion?

Benjamin 21:48

Well, can you ask me that slightly different way?

Seth 21:52

Yeah, I guess my question is, anyone that wants to become a leader, or run for politics, or a church, your politics matter, but only as long as you fit into this small bucket of Christianity? That is? Well, I don't really need to define it, because you can just turn on Fox News and see it. And I would call that Christian tribalism as opposed to a religion.

Benjamin 22:16

Oh, for sure.

Seth 22:17

And so how have we gotten there?

Benjamin 22:20

Yeah, so as a start certainly Ithink tribalism an innate human instinct. We certainly just as human beings seemed to consolidate around commonalities in order to, you know, be with like people in order to protect from enemies. So we do kind of gravitate towards tribalism. And I think like the Gospel is actually in, you know, a calling, and an antidote to move beyond that kind of tribalism. But certainly in America, you know, it's honestly, it's more than tribalism. What it is, is this desire for political power, and there is definitely a prominent group of people who want nothing more than control and political power. And it's becoming more and more apparent that they will do anything to get it including, like selling out their own values.

And so I don't even know if in their case, it's an issue and tribalism, I believe is a pure lust for political power. And they will actually reframe things in whatever way they need to, in order to to achieve that power. And I mean, a great case in point is just Donald Trump. The religious right I grew up in there was no way we would have ever supported somebody as grossly as immoral as he is. But today that lust for power is just so overwhelming, that they will literally look aside and explain away and disregard everything that he does. That is so blatantly immoral. And so like I said, it's not even so much about tribalism, as it is they just want power and clearly will do anything together.

Seth 24:08

Yeah. Which is the inverse of what Jesus stood for. He literally gave it gave every power away, was offered all the power. And so I don't know, you're not even asking the right question this isn't even the right power. you're offering the wrong power.

Benjamin 24:24

Yes, temptation in the wilderness. Yes. offered him all the political power. That was the first test before ministry is rejecting that.

Seth 24:32

Other things that I think fall away. When you move past a fear based version of God. And you say it in your book, and I'm going to paraphrase it, you say something about the leaders in a Calvinist movement, or I would say the church proper, from what I've noticed in church, make the case that we cannot even experience God's love until we are sufficiently and appropriately afraid of what he would do to us if we don't love him back in the right way. I had many issues with Calvinism, or I become to have many issues with Calvinism. But I get the most pushback on these shows, specifically from Calvinists.

And so I guess what would you say to someone not that is currently a Calvinist and listening because I can't think there would be many, but from someone that is teetering on, do I believe in some of the points? Maybe I just want to let it all go? What would you say to someone moving past that? What can they cling to when they when they let go of that fear and embrace grace, you alluded to earlier? The the grace, there was no grace at Word of Life-it was all fear.

Benjamin 25:38

No, for sure. Gosh, as far as Calvinism I gosh. I you know, I think maybe I wrote in the book that, you know, I was a Calvinist for, you know, as Calvinist for you know, for a few days, and it was, you know, the longest, you know, six months of my life and it's just for me, I don't have much connection with it at all. And certainly some of the folks who have gone after me over the years have most predominantly been Calvinist. I mean, just, yeah, almost mercilessly. They can't stand me. You know, but this idea that we have to be sufficiently afraid of God, to me is just nonsense in that when the Bible describes the opposite of love, it doesn't describe hate, it describes fear.

And you know, it says that there's there can be no fear, love, and that perfect love casts out all fear. And so, if the Bible is saying that perfect love makes fear go away, like, how can you say that we can't experience love until we're sufficiently afraid? It's ridiculously grossly unbiblical, right on the surface. Furthermore, it doesn't make any practical sense. For example, you know, I talked about ISIS terrorists and setting people on fire and how could you ever like be in a relationship with somebody who was willing to do that? I mean think about abusive relationships. How do you really have a deeply connected and authentic relationship with somebody who you're afraid, in the back of your mind, that if you step on the wrong thing, they are going to unleash on you and harm you whether physically emotionally whatever the case may be, you know, you can have a you know, a really dysfunctional relationship a you know, somebody you can have a relationship based on appeasement or codependency. But I don't know how you have a relationship that is founded upon fear that is anything like what I would imagine God longs to have us.

Seth 27:33

Yeah, I agree, wholeheartedly agree. There was a portion in your in your book, and right in the mid center, that I had never learned never heard of. I had seen Darby’s translation of the Bible. But I had no idea why that name was a name that mattered. And you talk a bit of the history of Darby, and kind of how before his version, the church did what the church should do if people were hungry, they fed them is Salvation Army, they set up libraries, and they would do what needed to be done. And so I feel like there has to be a pile of people that are not familiar with a bit of Darby, and how that impacts dispensation ism. And how that makes us look at what we do with our military. And so can you speak a bit about that history and kind of how it relates to today?

Benjamin 28:20

Yeah, no, I think it is absolutely fascinating. In that so many Christians today, obviously grow up being taught some version of like end times theology, you know, there's going to be a rapture and even if you don't believe in a rapture, you know, oftentimes most people believe in the coming tribulation, and that just everything is getting worse and worse. And that just seems to be in modern evangelicalism, like so prominent, even if there's different degrees of nuance that people believe. And certainly, that's what I was raised with and I believe that that generates an incredibly pessimistic view of the future.

And I had no idea that Christians ever believe anything different because growing up, I wasn't even taught that there was an alternative. I was in my 30s, at seminary and heard a professor, you know, mocking the idea of a rapture and I sat there and I was utterly bewildered because I didn't know what he was talking about! That there was another view. But certainly, man if you go back…go back to the 1800s, man, evangelicalism in America did some amazing things.

I mean, certainly Christians back then did some horrible and abhorrent things. But there were like some evangelicals that were so optimistic about the future. They didn't believe that, like the world was ending, they believe that, you know, that the kingdom was was both now and not yet. And that we need to make the world into the kind of place, you know, ready for Jesus to return to and to reign. And they were, you know, addressing, you know, social problems and social ills with this optimism. Even like the big tent old fashioned revivals, there was a famous revivalist called his name was Charles Grandison Finney, a really famous revivalist. He preached two things, he preached the need for personal conversion, which is what you'd expect at a revival. But then he also preached that you need to become socially useful. And so there was this concept of being socially useful tied to what it meant to be an evangelical Christian. And they just did some amazing things. And so but then things started to change. There was this minister from England, John Nelson Darby, and he was not trained in the Bible was not theologically trained, he just had some, some pretty wacky ideas. And he either, you know, popularized or, you know, invented the idea of a rapture. Sometimes there's some debate where it truly originated, but clearly he is the one who popularized it at least.
And, you know, this was in the mid to latter 1800s when this happened, and so, it ended up slowly kind of taking root. And what Darby taught was, he rebuked Christians for having an optimistic outlook on the future. And he said that we can only expect things to get worse and worse until God has no other choice but to judge the world.

And so at first, it didn't really take hold. But then as time went on, it really began to take root. And then of course, we ended up getting the Scofield Study Bible, which many people had growing up. And in the Scofield study Bible it had Derby's notes in the margins, which a lot of just lay people confused with, like the true Scripture itself, began to take root. And then more and more Bible schools propped up there were all…all these like Bible schools in around that time that were propping up most of them were all founded on the concept of teaching, you know, dispensationalism. And so it started to gain traction. And then by the time we see World War One hit, and you know, and then certainly World War Two, people started saying, hey, maybe he's right…

Seth 32:07

Everything is getting worse,

Benjamin 32:08

Everything's getting worse. And then from there, people realize that you can make a shit ton of money off of writing about the end of the world. And so they just ran with it..

Seth 32:51

So taking that to its end result, and I think you can speak to this from a side that many can't. So you've lived in all of those camps. You've been in the military, you've been fundamentalist. So what then, as a I am currently struggling with, how do I sit with gun rights? How do I sit with how we use our military, and pacifism, but also I’m going to…I feel like I'm going to punch you in the mouth, if you punch me first. And so how do you stand on that? What should be the purpose of a nation to use a military and what should be the churches either support or retribution, or whatever the with that?

Benjamin 33:34

Well, the church's job is to follow Jesus and to make Jesus known among the nations and to teach everyone you know, to go to all the nations and to baptize them and to teach them to obey everything Jesus commanded. And Jesus clearly commanded that we love our enemies, that we do not repay, you know, evil for evil. You know, in fact, you know, both in Matthew and in Luke, Jesus says, you know, to not repay that way, but were to love our enemies. Matthew says, you know, for then you will be acting like children of your Father in heaven and Luke adds the caveat saying, for, you know, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. If when we love our enemies, and when we do not repay evil with evil, that we, we are acting like God Himself. And so, do nations have a right to have a military clearly, you know, a nation can do whatever a nation wants. But the role of a church is to teach people Jesus, and Jesus did not go around dropping bombs. Jesus taught against all of that. And so, I believe the church's number one role is to keep pointing people to Jesus keep pointing people to Jesus and what Jesus taught. So even though I acknowledge that a secular state has the right to do what a secular state does, I certainly have no idea how somebody can simultaneously follow Jesus, like legitimately follow Jesus, and follow his teachings and teach other people to follow his teachings, while also simultaneously supporting and advocating and propping up things that Jesus was very specifically against. I just, I honestly don't know how that works. I don't know how you do that.

Seth 35:22

Yeah, well, I don't either. I've been asked that question so many times, and I never had a satisfying answer. And I find when I tell people, well, I would like to view the world through the lens of if my neighbor is hungry, I'll feed them. And in this case, the neighbor can be Mexico or Belize, or it doesn't matter. And they're like, well, they're just going to come take your things! And it’s like well what are you valuing? And my value is Jesus

Benjamin 35:45

Jesus said, Okay, well, they take your hat, give then your coat too. Okay. That's it. I mean, for me, people ask me these question, my friend Brian Zahnd one time, before I was going on before debate, and he just he gave me the advice. He said, “Just let Jesus do all the heavy lifting.”

And I think it's the best advice I've ever gotten. You get in these conversations, let Jesus do the heavy lifting. And it's amazing how people will not want to have a discussion with you, how a Christian will not want to have a discussion with you if you keep pointing them to Jesus. But what did Jesus say? What did Jesus say? Yeah, it's, it should be like the easiest thing for a Christian to accept. And yet, it will be the most maddening for many people.

Seth 36:31

So we're running out of time. And so I want to get a bit too and you don't really talk a lot about this in your book but it's inferred and and you can extrapolate from it. So what do we do with you know, in the news lately, we've had, you know, in Tennessee, there was a church that basically was told if you bring this senior minister, that's a woman, you can't be a part of this Southern Baptist Convention, or Cooperative Baptist fellowship, or whichever version of Baptist it was. And then you got, you know, John Piper taking a jab at women every which I take a umbrage at, because I have two small women that if they want to be ministers, right, women were as effective as ministers as men in the Scripture. So what would you say to someone that lives in that misogynist, dualistic, Idon't even remember what the word is complementarianism. I don't know if that's what the word is, how do you? And you've written to it recently, and so I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that.

Benjamin 37:27

Well, you know, what would I say to such a person? I mean, you know, I think I was in an interview a couple of days ago, and they said, “What would you say to a person who“, and I'm like, Well, every person is different. And every communication style, you know, needs to be adjusted for the individual. If our desire is to truly persuade, and convert, I never know how to answer directly the question, what would you say to a person because to me, every person is different. And you know, if my goal is to change your heart, I want to find the most effective way communicate with a person as I can.

But certainly, as far as women in ministry, I mean, Oh, my gosh, I just did a post the other day with 10 points, in that there are strong female leadership throughout the Old Testament, and that, obviously, you know, the Old Testament, in news are written from a very patriarchal and misogynistic society. And, you know, but we still see the emergence of strong female leaders, we see, you know, even in the writings of Paul mentioning, you know, female church leaders, and so even Paul, if, you know, you interpret him the way that like the Calvinist want to, isn't even consistent, because one time, you know, in, he says, women stay silent in the church, and the other few chapters later, he's talking about women standing up in front of the church prophesiying. And so, you know, I think, you know, the biggest thing that I would, you know, want the biggest point I would want to convey to such a person is the, the contextual nature of so much of Scripture, that would be the point I'm trying to get across in that, you know, Paul is writing letters to specific churches addressing specific problems. There are occasions where we actually know the problem he's trying to address, such as somebody sleeping with his stepmother. And so he's giving advice to the church, you know, on that, but in other cases, Paul is like, we are writing these churches, and we don't always know exactly what he's trying to speak into.

So to truly honor scripture, we will need to make sure like we are applying everything on a one for one equivalent, and we just don't have the ability to do that. Not understanding all that Paul contextually was speaking into, but certainly my favorite one that I like to do with, with people in the complimentary in camp, especially when they're literalist is I like to say, “Oh, yeah, when you go to church, do you greet your brothers with a holy kiss?” They're always like, “NO!!!”

Okay, then you already believe that some of what Paul commanded was historically contextual to a time and place we don't follow today, you know, so don't give me this nonsense about “Oh, when Paul says is about women, is for all time, but when he tells the guys to kiss each other at church, all of a sudden, like that's past that.”

Seth 40:12

And so for the women listening, and for my daughters in 20 years, if they feel like listening, the message would be you are loved. And you are entirely empowered to witness, and to minister, [and preach] the gospel, and you were no way put in a subservient place.

Benjamin 40:28

Yep. I mean, God chose women to be the first two people to preach the Gospel that Christ is risen, and they preached it to men. So it's good enough for God is good enough for us. You can preach any preaching, preaching, preaching?

Seth 40:43

So I want to end on on this. So how do we make sure that we raise a generation..and and let me back up a bit, I was talking with an extended family member recently, and and we both find it odd that the generation of Dr. Falwell-those chills can raise my generation, which seemed to be entirely more socially minded and arguably more “less dualistic”, then at least my small circles are so how does our generation now raise our children in such a way that Jesus isn't based on fear, while still having a proper exegesis Jesus of Scripture? Because I find it hard, my son asks a question, the other day at breakfast, just that how do I know that God is Jesus and Jesus is God? And it's hard when I have to talk about, you know, substitutionary atonement or penal substitution it's just hard. So how do we train our children in such a way that God is not rooted in fear?

Benjamin 41:47

Well, you know, I think that can be a complex question. I know, for me, I teach my daughter Jesus, and I focus Jesus and how he loved people and how he cared for people and how he brought people in. And, you know, I will frequently say, I think I probably heard Greg Boyd say at first, but I have certainly picked up a habit for saying it myself. That, you know, the only way to describe what God is like is to describe what Jesus is like. Like, that's the only way I mean, Jesus is our doctrine of God, if you want to know God's like, you got to look to Jesus.

And so I basically I teach my daughter, that it is all centered on Jesus. Jesus is where we begin. Jesus is the Word of God, Hebrews calls Jesus the Wisdom of God, He is the full expression of God's essence. And so I just keep pointing them to Jesus. And, you know, you know, I think, you know, maybe back in the day, a lot of people heard the analogy, it was often used about exposing a false Gospel, they would say, “Well, you know, how they tell counterfeit money. You know, they don't study the counterfeits they study the real thing. And so you notice the counterfeit when you see it.”

And so I do apply that concept. We go to Jesus, we go to Jesus, everything that doesn't look like Jesus is not God. You know, everything that doesn't sound like Jesus. No, no, that's not of God. And so, for me, I don't know what else to do other than to really deeply root your entire foundation in Jesus and let Jesus be that lens.

Seth 43:26

Awesome. We're going to wrap it up. So where can people interact with you, I know you're active on social media, and plug the book as well. And for those listening, all of those links will be in the notes as you just scroll right past the play button. And so I will link everything there. But where would you point people to engage with you, to interact with others that are struggling with these issues?

Benjamin 43:51

Well, definitely. Well, folks can find me on Twitter at @BenjaminLCorey, and also on Facebook, you can find me @BenjaminLCorey, you'll see the blue checkmark there to know that that's my public page. And I am working on definitely interacting and engaging with readers more. It's been a long year for me, and I've been a bit isolated, you know, in many, many ways. So they can join the discussion there on Facebook. And then of course, they can always go right to my blog on patheoa, or directly through formerly funding calm. And so all of those places, you will find me BenjaminLCorey is the easiest way to track me down.

Seth 44:32

Great, great. Well, Benjamin, I hope you have a great rest of your morning. And a great, I hope for us great for you. I appreciate the same question. Is there another book coming? Are you back in bed with the mafia?

Benjamin 44:44

I am not back in the bed with the mafia yet, but I just took the sheets out of the dryer and I am moving in that direction.

Seth 44:52

Good, good, good.

Seth Outro 44:26

People, people listen. I hope that you got as much out of that as I did. It was so fun talking with Ben. It's odd to find someone that has worn all of the hats-has been fundamentalist has been Calvinist has been in the military is a father has been divorced. It's just, it's refreshing to hear from someone that knows genuinely where you're coming from. And so where do we sit with that? I know personally, and it's been referenced in other episodes, I find that my job now is to love as Jesus does teach my children to do the same. And if I'm honest, I'm slightly fearful that I'll fail at that. And, and so I'll pray for you, you pray for me, it is hard to be that transparent, and to not lose our temper, either online, in our family, at our job. But I think that it's doable. And I think we can do it. To those that have supported the show on Patreon. Thank you so much. So much, I have no idea what an honor that is to earn your support in that way. This show is entirely supported by you, 127%. I've enjoyed the conversation and the interaction with many of you on Twitter. And I would encourage you to reach out on Facebook, on social media everywhere. The conversation is fantastic. I enjoy it. And I know it helps connect many of you that are of a like mine that are dealing with these same conversations. And so thank you for that to the handful of you sitting on your couch or in your car. consider becoming a patron as little as a buck a month. But do what you feel called to do. And I will be grateful either way. Be blessed and we'll talk to you next time.

The music that you heard today was provided from the band Verses based out of Newcastle, Australia. You can find their music on Spotify, iTunes, or at their website vs. Music. com. You can also find all of the music featured from any episode on Spotify playlist Can I Say This At Church